[AlwaysMissingTheBoat]

I agree, however we should resist changes that will make things worse.


I agree,

Based on the stats presented in this thread there is no comparison, the rate in the CAF is far lower.
Given that, should we replace the more effective military structure with a less effective civilian based structure?

The question isn't should we try to fix these problems, the question is if the proposals and recommendations are actually likely to make things better.

Finally this has gotten off track.
My point is that it is inappropriate to slam military leadership as being full of serial sex offenders, when there is no evidence to support such a claim.
I never said they were perfect, I just doubt there is evidence of a massive overrepresentation in senior leadership.

I guess headlines like these don't help (and there have been additional senior "leaders" charged since most of these were written):


A military in crisis: Here are the senior leaders embroiled in sexual misconduct cases
Social Sharing

Observers say they've never seen so many military leaders swept up in scandal at the same time

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sexual-misconduct-military-senior-leaders-dnd-caf-1.6218683


Sexual misconduct report finds Canadian military culture ‘deficient’

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/05/30/canada-armed-forces-sexual-misconduct-report/


Canadian Forces publishing new ethos in wake of sexual misconduct crisis: ‘Trusted to Serve’
Canadian Forces publishing new ethos in wake of sexual misconduct crisis: ‘Trusted to Serve’ - National | Globalnews.ca


Women in Canada’s military face greater harm from comrades than enemy, says judge
https://globalnews.ca/news/8607543/canadian-forces-sexual-misconduct-new-ethos/


Crisis of Leadership, Thirty Years in the Making: Sexual Violence in the Canadian Military

https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/crisis-leadership-thirty-years-making-sexual-violence-canadian-military/

 

[MrMatt]

I guess headlines like these don't help (and there have been additional senior "leaders" charged since most of these were written):

The headelines are purposely inflamatory.
I'll only talk about the first article, because that's the only one actually relevant to my claim that the serial sexual offenders are a small number out of thousands.
Observers say they've never seen so many military leaders swept up in scandal at the same time

1. There are 13 names out of thousands of senior officers. Yes this is a problem, but it isn't far too many serial sex offenders. It's a handful out of thousands.
2. Of the 13 names, many were not investigated or ever convicted. Only 2 have been charged.
3. Several of them were even accused of any sex crime AT ALL, let alone were suggested to be "serial sex offenders"

But lets look at the cases.
Vance had a longstanding consensual affair with a woman.
He's alleged to sending an email to another woman.

McDonald, that claim, investigated no charges, and it's a bizarre incident.

Coates, had an affair with a woman outside his chain of command. Sorry, consensual sex with someone who is not your spouse is not a crime.

Edmunson - Very legitimate concern in the courts today
Dawe - legitimate concern, poorly handled.

Fortin- allegations about an incident from school, 33 years ago. Charged, but effectively killed his career, no trial has occured yet.

Croucher - inappropriate comments, but no charges because he left. That is a policy loophole, the investigation should have continued.

Rouleau - Played golf with a friend who was under investigation.
Baines - Played golf with a friend who was under investigation.

Cadieu - historical allegations - being investigated, no charges.

Whelan - investigation of a single charge

Bye- inappropriate comments

Waller - multiple cases in civilian courts.


Honestly, I stand that there are a handful of people accused of sex crimes, only 2 appear to be accused of being serial sex offenders.

Several of the names didn't even commit crimes (let alone sex crimes), and it looks like "inappropriate comments" is the most common complaint.
I think inappropriate comments likely underemphasizes the seriousness of the alleged crime.

But less than a dozen cases, out of thousands of senior officers, including cases going back over 30 years?

 

[Gator13]

Another article:

Canada’s Military, Where Sexual Misconduct Went to the Top, Looks for a New Path

A report by a former Supreme Court justice released Monday offers recommendations to turn around pervasive sexual assault and harassment.

www.nytimes.com

 

[MrMatt]

Another article:

Canada’s Military, Where Sexual Misconduct Went to the Top, Looks for a New Path

A report by a former Supreme Court justice released Monday offers recommendations to turn around pervasive sexual assault and harassment.

www.nytimes.com

Paywalled.

Nobody isn't arguing there is a problem.
But who's going to promote real solutions.

Yes there is pervasive sexual assault and harassments, just like there is in every other part of society.

Unlike Hollywood however, there is a clear understanding that this type of behaviour unacceptable.

 

[Gator13]

There has been 4 reports with a pile of recommendations. The military needs to be willing to change and actually action the recommendations. The latest report identifies this as an issue.

 

[sags]

Don't forget about this freak of nature.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/true-crime-scene/canadian-air-force-colonel-russell-williams-underwear-fetish-stoked-depraved-lust/news-story/bdac210226e88539ab971a0778d06459

 

[Zipper]

🤣

 

[MrMatt]

There has been 4 reports with a pile of recommendations. The military needs to be willing to change and actually action the recommendations. The latest report identifies this as an issue.

The military is working on it, so are employees, schools, the public service and the civilian world.

Just because some report made some recommendations that doesn't mean.
1. They are the right things to do.
2. They explain how to implement them.
3. They actually CAN be implemented.
4. That they will be quick to implement.

I reccommend that the Liberal party of Canada replace Trudeau, because the government is doing a horrible job.

For some reason they're very slow to act. Maybe they don't think turfing him is the right solution.

 

[Gator13]

Inaction will not fix the problem. Nor will excuses.

There are thousands of senior officers to come up with solutions and implement them.

 

[m3s]

The military is working on it, so are employees, schools, the public service and the civilian world.

Yea, working on it by kicking out all the boomer generals from a bygone era 😂

Not sure how long you've been out but Op Honour had lots of time and it was a complete failure. Some things need to be separate from the chain of command and this was one of them. Military police were too influenced by the chain of command. The Canadian military justice system is going through a lot of major changes and how sexual assault cases are handled is just one

Canada does a lot of things better but US military is years ahead with their SAPR program

 

[MrMatt]

Not sure how long you've been out but Op Honour had lots of time and it was a complete failure. Some things need to be separate from the chain of command and this was one of them. Military police were too influenced by the chain of command. The Canadian military justice system is going through a lot of major changes and how sexual assault cases are handled is just one

Canada does a lot of things better but US military is years ahead with their SAPR program

Yes, I agree we should do better, yes there are problems.
I even agree that criminal investigation shouldn't be interfered with by leadership. (That goes for the PM as well)

But this is all beside the point. I simply disagreed with a slanderous and unfounded smear against military leadership.

The Canadian military's top brass has proven to have far too many serial sexual offenders. Several of them are consequently facing charges. Exemplary leadership is sorely lacking, it seems.

I simply dispute that claim.
It's a problem, but a handful of accused out of several thousand, shouldn't be an indictment on the whole.
While one serial sexual offender is too many, the ONLY one they actually referenced is facing investigations and charges in civilian courts anyway.

 

[Ukrainiandude]

I can only imagine that Ukrainian armed forces are only dreaming about having the same kind of “problems” Canadian forces have to deal with on daily basis.

 

[james4beach]

I can only imagine that Ukrainian armed forces are only dreaming about having the same kind of “problems” Canadian forces have to deal with on daily basis.

Hence the term, "first world problems"

 

[Ukrainiandude]

You can turn on English subtitles by clicking the CC icon.

 

[Gator13]

More negative news for the Canadian Military. What a mess.

Anger grows as Canadian military officers rally around general accused of sexual assault

Retired Lt. Gen. Trevor Cadieu has been accused of raping a female student at a military college in 1994. He has denied wrongdoing.

www.google.com

 

[MrMatt]

More negative news for the Canadian Military. What a mess.

Anger grows as Canadian military officers rally around general accused of sexual assault

Retired Lt. Gen. Trevor Cadieu has been accused of raping a female student at a military college in 1994. He has denied wrongdoing.

www.google.com

Yes accusations of a crime that occurred over a quarter century ago.
And he was arrested and is facing trial. Which is exactly what happened.

The problem is the one sided nature.
It's okay to publicly support the person making the unproven allegations, but it's not okay to support the innocent until proven guilty accused?

You realize that false accusations are a heavy burden for the victim (the falsely accused) right?

I have little doubt that 26 years ago, something inappropriate happened.
But what evidence, is likely, other than a he said/she said.

In which case it's a case of credibility, they should both be working to build their credibility.
I would hope that after a decade with the same employer, a few coworkers would be brave enough to stand up and say "this doesn't sound like the guy I worked with for decades".
- These are often called character witnesses.

This guy faces potentially serious jail time. If I was in his situation I would use every possible tool at my disposal to protect myself.

 

[m3s]

In which case it's a case of credibility, they should both be working to build their credibility.
I would hope that after a decade with the same employer, a few coworkers would be brave enough to stand up and say "this doesn't sound like the guy I worked with for decades".
- These are often called character witnesses.

This guy faces potentially serious jail time. If I was in his situation I would use every possible tool at my disposal to protect myself.

I'm sure Col Williams had a good character at work or else he wouldn't have been promoted to Col and became wing commander.

I don't see what a work character reference has to do with whether or not Col Williams murdered and raped women under his command

You don't get a free pass to breaking the law by having a good character and acting professional only when your boss is watching

 

[sags]

An interview with the commander of a top Ukrainian military unit says that 80% of his unit has been killed or injured.

There are stories of Ukrainian soldiers refusing orders from commanders and deserting their posts.

Today the Russians have resumed shelling Kyiv and are moving nuclear capable missiles into Belarus in response to NATO flights in the area.

It looks like the war may be coming to an end soon.....one way or another.

 

[MrMatt]

I'm sure Col Williams had a good character at work or else he wouldn't have been promoted to Col and became wing commander.

I don't see what a work character reference has to do with whether or not Col Williams murdered and raped women under his command

You don't get a free pass to breaking the law by having a good character and acting professional only when your boss is watching

No, but no matter the charges, you should be able to have friends and coworkers testify as to your character.

I actually see a correlation between private and personal ethics and standards of behavior

This case is likely a 26 year old case of her word vs his word.

The big problem with sexual assault cases is that there is typically very little evidence, we don't know how to deal with that.

Also, while I'm not saying these allegations are false, the cost of false allegations is typically much higher on the accused, than the one making the false accusation.

 

[m3s]

Putin is no fool

Ukrainian economy has collapsed and war is not cheap. West just spent trillions on war and printed insane money for covid

Lex Fridman (born in Moscow of Ukrainian-Jewish descent) has some long form podcasts with biased views from both sides

I don't see war coming to an end soon at all. Putin is waging economic war on the USD reserve currency and US led institutions

Just like all the other proxy wars there are much bigger things going on here. Germany is firing up its coal power plants