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Precisely.
Having proxy war in non-NATO country is safer from WW 3 escalation perspective, than not reacting now and emboldening Russia to go after small Baltic states that are in NATO
 

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Precisely.
Having proxy war in non-NATO country is safer from WW 3 escalation perspective, than not reacting now and emboldening Russia to go after small Baltic states that are in NATO
or other EU states like Finland and Sweden.

Telling the world that this aggression will not be accepted IS an attempt to stop the escalation.
 

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Discussion Starter · #243 ·
Having proxy war in non-NATO country is safer from WW 3 escalation perspective
These are all very good points and I'm coming around to this idea, that a strong NATO response may be the best route to avoiding WW3. All of your arguments on this thread, plus the discussion with my MP, have shifted my opinion slightly.

Still, we have to be careful about the defense industry warping our foreign/war policy and influencing this whole process. It's happened countless times before, and in the US, senior military people who rise through the ranks end up going to work for the defense industry. Their business interests then end up influencing war policies.
 

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These are all very good points and I'm coming around to this idea, that a strong NATO response may be the best route to avoiding WW3. All of your arguments on this thread, plus the discussion with my MP, have shifted my opinion slightly.

Still, we have to be careful about the defense industry warping our foreign/war policy and influencing this whole process. It's happened countless times before, and in the US, senior military people who rise through the ranks end up going to work for the defense industry. Their business interests then end up influencing war policies.
Well if you rise to a high level in any aspect of government, your likely have skills that are in demand in the private sector.

Military leadership in particular is a great screening process, those at the top have decades of high performance and a proven ability to deliver results and manage politics. Exactly the type of stuff you want in a senior executive.
 

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Well if you rise to a high level in any aspect of government, your likely have skills that are in demand in the private sector.

Military leadership in particular is a great screening process, those at the top have decades of high performance and a proven ability to deliver results and manage politics. Exactly the type of stuff you want in a senior executive.
The Canadian military's top brass has proven to have far too many serial sexual offenders. Several of them are consequently facing charges. Exemplary leadership is sorely lacking, it seems.
 

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The Canadian military's top brass has proven to have far too many serial sexual offenders. Several of them are consequently facing charges. Exemplary leadership is sorely lacking, it seems.
Yes too many, yes it's a problem, yes they have many problems to deal with.
One in particular is that traditional warfighting culture isn't wildly compatible with mainstream civilian culture, and we don't quite know how to deal with that.
Alcohol abuse is a HUGE issue, but "work hard, play hard" is real, and if your life depends on the work hard half, do you really care about how much they drink off duty?

But that being said, I do believe you're talking about handfuls of people, over decades, vs hundreds or thousands of senior officers who don't appear to have committed these crimes.

Additionally I don't think it's unusual for highly successful people to have a particular drive. Often they want sex, drugs, money, or power.
 

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Yes too many, yes it's a problem, yes they have many problems to deal with.
One in particular is that traditional warfighting culture isn't wildly compatible with mainstream civilian culture, and we don't quite know how to deal with that.
Alcohol abuse is a HUGE issue, but "work hard, play hard" is real, and if your life depends on the work hard half, do you really care about how much they drink off duty?

But that being said, I do believe you're talking about handfuls of people, over decades, vs hundreds or thousands of senior officers who don't appear to have committed these crimes.

Additionally I don't think it's unusual for highly successful people to have a particular drive. Often they want sex, drugs, money, or power.
AlwaysMissingTheBoat's comments are spot on.

Don't make excuses or condone their actions. Canada's military is well under 100.000 so we sure don't have hundreds of thousands of senior officers. Most would agree that we are only hearing about a small fraction of what is taking place. It's disgusting that this continues to happen and nothing is done about it.
 

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AlwaysMissingTheBoat's comments are spot on.

Don't make excuses or condone their actions. Canada's military is well under 100.000 so we sure don't have hundreds of thousands of senior officers. Most would agree that we are only hearing about a small fraction of what is taking place. It's disgusting that this continues to happen and nothing is done about it.
FFS, can you read?
I never "made excuses or condoned their actions"
I even pointed out that this is one of the MANY problems with military culture.
How is saying that there are lots of problems in any way condoning their actions?

Really over the last "several decades' you don't think that we've had a few hundred or thousand senior officers?
There have been a number of high profile cases, over this time.
Unverified source https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadianForces/comments/3dkhix , but it shows several thousand active senior officers at that time, I have no reason to believe it is out by several orders of magnitude as you claim.

As far as your claim that 'nothing is done about it', that is simply untrue.
They're working on it, they simply don't know how to solve the problem.

They don't know how to solve this problem in other parts of society either. Please advise where in society today there are no sex offenders, and the investigation is fair and equitable to both parties (the accused and the accuser)
It's a tough problem.
We want to empower victims, but you have to look at the impact even provably false accusations have had on the accused to understand how tough this balance is.
 

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.......
As far as your claim that 'nothing is done about it', that is simply untrue.
They're working on it, they simply don't know how to solve the problem.

They don't know how to solve this problem in other parts of society either. Please advise where in society today there are no sex offenders, and the investigation is fair and equitable to both parties (the accused and the accuser)
It's a tough problem.
We want to empower victims, but you have to look at the impact even provably false accusations have had on the accused to understand how tough this balance is.
Yes, FFS, I can read. They're working on it? Really?

Report after report and most of the recommendations are ignored. The latest report by Louise Arbour confirms that. Hers is the fourth report.

There has been resistance to change and to give civilian authorities jurisdiction over sexual misconduct.

About 25% of the women serving in the Canadian military said they had been sexually assaulted during their military careers, according to our government census. That is pretty damn sad. Sounds like more than more than a handful.

What other part of society that is a fair comparison to the Canadian Armed Forces has a similar problem?
 

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Yes, FFS, I can read. They're working on it? Really?
Okay, I only ask since you seem to have misread my claims.

There has been resistance to change and to give civilian authorities jurisdiction over sexual misconduct.
Yes, of course there has been, why would you run parallel justice systems?
I think that they should correct and integrate the criminal vs non criminal systems, but since different laws are in play it gets very confusing.
Secondly this may not work, the civilian justice system is not very good at dealing with these crimes either.
So that raises the question, are they resisting it because they like rapists, or because they don't think it will make things better?


About 25% of the women serving in the Canadian military said they had been sexually assaulted during their military careers, according to our government census. That is pretty damn sad. Sounds like more than more than a handful.
Ahh, misrepresenting my claim.
I suggested that we have had only identified a handful of "serial sexual offenders", out of thousands of senior officers.


As for the 25% of the population being victims. (which I never disputed, and actually agree with )
I'm not at all surprised as that is similar to the widely reported victim rate of sexual violence in the population at large (US stats)
Statistics << 20% of women and 25% of men have been victims of sexual violence.

What other part of society that is a fair comparison to the Canadian Armed Forces has a similar problem?
Perhaps the Canadian population at large?

"More than 11 million Canadians have been physically or sexually assaulted since the age of 15. This represents 39% of women and 35% of men 15 years of age and older in Canada"

So to repeat myself.
Sexual violence is a big problem.
It is one of many behavioural problems in the military.
I'm only aware of a small number of serial sexual offenders out of thousands and feel that it is inappropriate to smear senior military officers with statements such as "Exemplary leadership is sorely lacking, it seems."
I am NOT making the claim that the rate of sexual violence in the military is lower than in the general population
I do believe they take this seriously, and they are working on it, but it is a very difficult problem, and NOBODY knows how to solve it.
 

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Oh, and pushback from a traditional ally. Putin seems so isolated, really. This is the right time to make him pay.



After Putin argued he was protecting Russian-speakers in the self-declared Donetsk and Luhansk peoples’ republics of eastern Ukraine, which Russia had recognized as independent days before the invasion, moderator Margarita Simonyan, head of the Kremlin-funded RT TV, pressed Kazakh President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev on whether he supported Russia’s view.

Kazakhstan doesn’t recognize “quasi-state territories which, in our view, is what Luhansk and Donetsk are,” Tokayev said. There’d be “chaos” in the world if hundreds of new countries emerged, even as there is a conflict between the legal principles of territorial integrity of states and the right of people living in them to self-determination, he said.

Tokayev’s dissent at the plenary session of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum was a rare discordant note for the Kremlin, which sought to show that Russia is successfully defying US and European sanctions aimed at isolating Putin. It was all the more noteworthy because Putin sent troops to Kazakhstan in January at Tokayev’s request to help crush what he called an attempted coup. Russia and Kazakhstan are also members of the Eurasian Economic Union, a Moscow-led rival to the European Union.

 

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It's time to push for solutions and not resist changes and throw up road blocks in an effort to keep things the same. There are an abundance of recommendations in the various reports.

The Canadian Armed Forces: Duty with Honour

Most would agree that an institution like the CAF should be held to a far higher standard and not be statistically compared to the Canadian population at large.
 

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About 25% of the women serving in the Canadian military said they had been sexually assaulted during their military careers, according to our government census. That is pretty damn sad. Sounds like more than more than a handful.
Is there any evidence of this?
How many of those were actually raped?
 

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What does a "win" look like for Ukraine ?

It looks like the Russia annexation of land from Ukraine, either by force or negotiation, is the only thing that will end the death and destruction.

Does anyone believe Ukraine will defeat Russia militarily forcing a withdrawal of forces, even with weapons supplied by the west and sanctions ?

Russia could withdraw to rest and resupply their forces and invade again at any future point in time.
 

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It's time to push for solutions and not resist changes and throw up road blocks in an effort to keep things the same. There are an abundance of recommendations in the various reports.
I agree, however we should resist changes that will make things worse.

Most would agree that an institution like the CAF should be held to a far higher standard and not be statistically compared to the Canadian population at large.
I agree,

Based on the stats presented in this thread there is no comparison, the rate in the CAF is far lower.
Given that, should we replace the more effective military structure with a less effective civilian based structure?

The question isn't should we try to fix these problems, the question is if the proposals and recommendations are actually likely to make things better.

Finally this has gotten off track.
My point is that it is inappropriate to slam military leadership as being full of serial sex offenders, when there is no evidence to support such a claim.
I never said they were perfect, I just doubt there is evidence of a massive overrepresentation in senior leadership.
 
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