why not place Vendor Deals in Vendor Deals thread

31331 Views 49 Replies 15 Participants Last post by olivaw, Nov 1, 2017

humble_pie

Discussion Starter · Oct 29, 2017

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there is a frank Vendor Deal being offered - in black & white dollar terms - among the general members' information-sharing posts. In the Retirement section i believe.

other members are wondering what it's doing there, are asking for the Deal to be moved to an appropriate section such as this one.

perhaps the moderators should do this? Vendor Deals could be a valuable section of the forum. I for one would certainly look under Vendor Deals if i were planning or seeking to purchase a service.

but to sprinkle the offers among genuine posts from members who are not selling anything, then to pretend that these commercial offers are "news" or "sharing," does not seem particularly efficient. It's certainly not fair to the vendors, because when their offers appear in the news/sharing sections, they seem to attract hostility or mockery. Surely that is not what vendors want. The one i am speaking of - the one placed in the wrong section - is actually a very nice offer, so imho it should be couched in a welcoming environment.

thankx for consideration

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Userkare

· #21 · Oct 30, 2017 (Edited)

I'm just not getting why there are so many knotted knickers here. I'm at the stage of life where I've passed through naive, then skeptical, and am now fully immersed in cynical. If it doesn't bother me, it must be pretty harmless. As I see it, the poster's name is clearly the same as the company name of the service it's advertising, and is clearly identified as "Site Sponsor"; not "posing" as anything.

I've read the WealthBar blog link posted in the "CPP sooner or later" thread. I didn't find it pushy towards using their services at all; it seemed like a balanced pro/con argument.

This site needs sponsors to exist, or needs to sell 'premium' memberships, whatever that would look like. This is not your sacred private safe space where you have any expectation to be commercial free. Deal with it.

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humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #22 · Oct 30, 2017

userkare we have no idea whether our wishes mean anything to our lords & masters; but assuming they might deign to hear a word or 2 from us pleb cmffers now & then, perhaps i might refresh what i've already posted?

nowhere did i look for zero ads. On the contrary, i like ads, for a whole lot of reasons but basically because they are helpful to consumers.

with respect to a specific product, for example the wealthBar roboadvisor, i think advertisers ("vendors") should be given ample opportunities. They could have their home page ad here under Vendor Deals; several cmffers have said they approve of this. One or 2 cmffers even said they prefer to have all vendor offers grouiped together in a "shop."

next, userkare has pointed out that advertisers/vendors also like to participate in threads that discuss their own product or a generic version of it, because this puts the advertisers/vendors right in the face of their potential customers. Me i think userkare is right, thankx for raising the point.

thus i believe that advertisers/vendors should have both spots. They should have a home page ad in "the shop;" while at the same time they should also be permitted to take part in relevant discussion threads.

the one thing i care about is that all of their thread posts should be identified with a unique vendor logo, plus the words SPONSORED POST should appear at the top of each & every such thread post.

advertisers are legitimate. The editorial side - that's us - & the advertising side need each other. We all have to get along together. I see nothing wrong with welcoming a few partisan advertisers into the very core & vortex of cmf forum threads.

after all, they might even turn out to be more pleasant & more knowledgeable than the rowdy peasant lot of untutored goths who bawl & brawl & post here so freely ...

each:

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Userkare

· #23 · Oct 30, 2017 (Edited)

humble_pie said:
userkare we have no idea whether our wishes mean anything to our lords & masters; but assuming they might deign to hear a word or 2 from us pleb cmffers now & then, perhaps i might refresh what i've already posted?

nowhere did i look for zero ads. On the contrary, i like ads, for a whole lot of reasons but basically because they are helpful to consumers.

I wasn't really directing my post at you. You are able to rationally discuss the pros and cons of the issue without resorting to all caps "SPAM", or being purposely rude to sponsors who post; you suggest compromises.

I'm happy that there's a site for Canadian specific money issues. I know that it's not free for the owners to provide it, so there has to be some form of commercialism involved. If that means that sponsors are allowed to engage in discussions with regular members in the core topic threads, then as long as they're open to answer questions honestly and are up-front about their affiliation, then I don't see the problem. Many of those who are complaining are saying the same thing - that there's some kind of attempt to deceive. The poster is identified as "Site Sponsor" right there in the post, and the name is the same as the service they're promoting. What more do they want to ensure transparency?

I hope the site owners will come up with something that will keep everyone happy; but then isn't it said that the best compromise is one where nobody's happy?

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james4beach

· #24 · Oct 30, 2017

Maybe a bigger, more visible logo of some kind could help clearly illustrate that the Site Sponsor is a paying sponsor?

For example, I found that many people didn't notice that my user name said Moderator, until it came up in a discussion one day. Most were surprised I was a Moderator, so it seems that this text is not too obvious even though it appears alongside every post.

AltaRed

· #25 · Oct 30, 2017

Many people just don't pay attention, just like those who cannot find 'edit post' or 'report post', go to Settings to adjust their 'user experience' et al. Unlikely to fine tune to 'fix all'. Been there, done that. That said, I can't find a place in Settings where I can hide (ignore) certain forums from view, e.g. this Vendors forum. Could be this 'put of the box' software doesn't have that option.

heyjude

· #26 · Oct 30, 2017

james4beach said:
Maybe a bigger, more visible logo of some kind could help clearly illustrate that the Site Sponsor is a paying sponsor?

For example, I found that many people didn't notice that my user name said Moderator, until it came up in a discussion one day. Most were surprised I was a Moderator, so it seems that this text is not too obvious even though it appears alongside every post.

James, I read CMF on my iPad. Several months ago I found that Safari was incompatible with CMF so I started to read it on Chrome. In Chrome, one cannot see any indication that you are a moderator, and there is no indication that WB is a sponsor.

humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #27 · Oct 30, 2017

heyjude said:
James, I read CMF on my iPad. Several months ago I found that Safari was incompatible with CMF so I started to read it on Chrome. In Chrome, one cannot see any indication that you are a moderator, and there is no indication that WB is a sponsor.

the above is why the words SPONSORED POST or SITE SPONSOR need to be embedded in the text at the start of every sponsor-written post. Prominent. All Caps. Bold Face. In the text, therefore visible to all browsers.

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humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #28 · Oct 30, 2017

james4beach said:
Maybe a bigger, more visible logo of some kind could help clearly illustrate that the Site Sponsor is a paying sponsor?

i like this. Eye-catching, big-enough, bold-enough graphic icon to identify all Sponsors & all Sponsored posts. Every advertiser/vendor to use the same icon so the brand catches on & can be recognized by cmffers in a flash.

notice, though, that as heyJude points out, not all browsers on all devices are capable of reproducing all graphics. The numero uno identifier for a Sponsored post should be the plain words SPONSORED POST or SITE SPONSOR embedded in the text at the start of sponsors' messages.

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james4beach

· #29 · Oct 30, 2017

heyjude said:
James, I read CMF on my iPad. Several months ago I found that Safari was incompatible with CMF so I started to read it on Chrome. In Chrome, one cannot see any indication that you are a moderator, and there is no indication that WB is a sponsor.

Wow that's interesting - thanks.

Could you folks please send notes about these observations to cmfadmin ? Or hopefully they will read this thread.

humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #30 · Oct 30, 2017

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apropos de rien. A bit of history here. Pour les amateurs et les amatrices de l'histoire seulement. Skip if you like. Tous les autres peuvent sauter ci-dessous.

CMF forum underwent a radical change some 4 or 5 years ago, when founders Canadian Capitalist & Frugal Trader upgraded to a more powerful host. I remember how it was Frugal who did all the advertising repositioning. There were countless new ad formats to choose from. Whenever he could, Frugal would ask the cmf membership whether they liked this version ... or did they like that version ...

Frugal did such a great job that the basic appearance & design of the forum remains the same to this day. It's true that Vertical Scope has introduced new ads, more aggressive ads, some ads that explode in the middle of the page, some tracking ads that drive the security software on board my machine into overtime.

but the basic forum still looks today the way Frugal Trader set it up years ago. A monument to his good design.

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OnlyMyOpinion

· #31 · Oct 31, 2017

Userkare said:
... rationally discuss the pros and cons of the issue without resorting to all caps "SPAM", or being purposely rude to sponsors who post; you suggest compromises.

User, your criticism is directly applicable to me, perhaps even directly intended for me.
Whatever. In your opinion SPAM is ok. In my opinion it is not. There are no 'pros' to someone posting (or starting) a thread whose intention is to provide links that lead to a site trying to sell products or services. You will notice that there are banner ads at the bottom of the site. That IMO is where they belong and where the site owners can capture eyeballs and make money. No 'compromise' is necessary. Some may consider the thread posts subversive or sneaky. I simply consider them WRONG. The threads belong to the MEMBERS. They are where we ask questions, discuss, share ideas and opinions - not where we tolerate SPAM.

I will continue to be purposely rude in response to such posts. But then, I' m just not the level-headed, mature person that you are. In fact I'm so immature and off-kilter that I even stop and pull out those illegal advertising banners from our neighbourhood boulevards.

I see the two Whoopybar threads are now locked. I for one hope they throw away the key, remove them and send them straight to hell.

P.S. I apologize for all the CAPS.

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james4beach

· #32 · Oct 31, 2017

The usual definition of spam is that it is unsolicited bulk messaging ... high volume junk that shows up uninvited. That's what we get with all these messages posted from India and the Philippines, repetitive messages they go around posting all over the internet. Same story with emails blasted out in high volumes to millions of addresses.

Since this is a vendor who has made an agreement with CMF, it is not unsolicited. It is expected and very much invited. It doesn't qualify as spam.

humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #33 · Oct 31, 2017

OnlyMyOpinion said:
User, your criticism is directly applicable to me, perhaps even directly intended for me.
Whatever. In your opinion SPAM is ok. In my opinion it is not. There are no 'pros' to someone posting (or starting) a thread whose intention is to provide links that lead to a site trying to sell products or services. You will notice that there are banner ads at the bottom of the site. That IMO is where they belong and where the site owners can capture eyeballs and make money. No 'compromise' is necessary. Some may consider the thread posts subversive or sneaky. I simply consider them WRONG. The threads belong to the MEMBERS. They are where we ask questions, discuss, share ideas and opinions - not where we tolerate SPAM.

I will continue to be purposely rude in response to such posts. But then, I' m just not the level-headed, mature person that you are. In fact I'm so immature and off-kilter that I even stop and pull out those illegal advertising banners from our neighbourhood boulevards.

I see the two Whoopybar threads are now locked. I for one hope they throw away the key, remove them and send them straight to hell.

P.S. I apologize for all the CAPS.

i love people like onlyMO. I have a BIL like onlyMO. The priceless, gigantic, unbeatable, extraordinary, forever-to-be-cherished plus is that what you see is what you get. There's no manipulation. No beating around the bush. One always knows exactly where one izz at.

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heyjude

· #34 · Oct 31, 2017

james4beach said:
Wow that's interesting - thanks.

Could you folks please send notes about these observations to cmfadmin ? Or hopefully they will read this thread.

No, I think that is your job.

james4beach

· #35 · Oct 31, 2017 (Edited)

heyjude said:
No, I think that is your job.

First of all -- this isn't a job, period. I'm not paid for it and I just volunteer.

Second, if I do have a "job" here, it is to watch for spam and abusive posts. I already evaluated the post in question and determined that it was not spam, for the reasons I described earlier. It's not abusive either. I've done my "job".

For those of you who have a problem with the post, you should contact the site admins and describe what your problem is.

It definitely is not my job to convey the gripes of people using a free service to the owners, when all those people have to do is send a direct message to the actual owners. Just click on the link below, then Send Private Message.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/member.php/1-cmfadmin

humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #36 · Oct 31, 2017

^^

thankx for posting the admins' link again.

this thread, for all that it has a lively conflicting spectrum of viewpoints, is nevertheless grinding forward quite productively, imho

what i balk at is posting here in this thread, in what appears to be a reasonable bona fide discussion, then having to duplicate & repeat everything in a message to the admins.

the issue here is a relatively important one, since the forum owners absolutely require the free voluntary input on finance, by a large & diverse number of posters, for the forum to even be able to survive.

another way of putting this idea is that the forum owners can't expect to powerfully flout or even alienate volunteer forum posters, lest those same posters simply get up & walk out.

myself, i think that a modest participation by advertisers/vendors directly in the editorial threads could work out fine, if certain reasonable guidelines could be followed. Guidelines such as including the words SPONSORED POST up top, embedded in the text of every Vendor post, for example.

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heyjude

· #37 · Oct 31, 2017

james4beach said:
First of all -- this isn't a job, period. I'm not paid for it and I just volunteer.

Second, if I do have a "job" here, it is to watch for spam and abusive posts. I already evaluated the post in question and determined that it was not spam, for the reasons I described earlier. It's not abusive either. I've done my "job".

For those of you who have a problem with the post, you should contact the site admins and describe what your problem is.

It definitely is not my job to convey the gripes of people using a free service to the owners, when all those people have to do is send a direct message to the actual owners. Just click on the link below, then Send Private Message.

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/member.php/1-cmfadmin

Right. Below is the message I just sent by PM to the administrator.

To whom it may concern:

I write as one of many forum members who are concerned about paid sponsors’ ability to covertly start and participate in “regular” threads, thereby introducing bias into the forum content. You should be aware that whatever tags are used to flag such posts are not visible on all platforms. The issues have been described in detail in the thread below. We believe that commercial vendors should not masquerade as the man or woman on the street. Ideally, their promotion should be confined to the already extant “Vendors” forum. At the very least, commercial vendors should be clearly identified on all platforms. The credibility of this forum continues to decline and many longstanding members have already left. If you wish to protect your asset, you will not dismiss members’ concerns.

Respectfully
heyjude

http://canadianmoneyforum.com/showt...ace-Vendor-Deals-in-Vendor-Deals-thread/page4

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humble_pie

Discussion Starter · #38 · Oct 31, 2017

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Rule # 3 of the forum owners' own "Vendor Rules" has come into force. Unfortunately Rule # 3 has already been violated. Twice.

3. Commercial posting is limited to either your personal vendor section or in the open vendor deals section of the vendor forum. If a member is looking for a product suggestion in the open forums it is acceptable to recommend a product that is relevant to the conversation but please keep it to a minimum and direct any subsequent conversation to private messages. Any vendor caught taking advantage of this rule will be subject to site infraction.

to repeat, Rule #3 states that vendors may suggest their products to cmf forum members who are specifically looking for a product suggestion but "keep it to a minimum and direct any subsequent conversation to private messages."

both Jack Styner & WealthBar ignored rule #3 & both launched their own threads with markedly aggressive ads.

rule #3 needs to be strictly enforced, to the point where product advertising threads launched by vendors will be immediately deleted in their entirety.

this begs the question: Who is going to do this work? who is going to monitor & control overly aggressive vendors?

james4beach says he will not do this work because he already has his hands totally full as moderator (jas4 is the best moderator this forum has seen since the long-ago days of Canadian Capitalist) (if jas4 disappears because he is overworked, the forum will not likely survive)

i would like to suggest that cmf forum owners halt their vendor program until they have been able to develop, not only methods for clearly identifying vendor posts across all browsers & all devices, but also structures for keeping unruly vendors under control.

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Userkare

· #39 · Oct 31, 2017

OnlyMyOpinion said:
User, your criticism is directly applicable to me, perhaps even directly intended for me.
Whatever. In your opinion SPAM is ok. In my opinion it is not. .

Actually, I don't recall who said what when. There are too many names here to keep track of that. I just remember seeing the word "SPAM" in more than one post, I believe; and also that someone threatened to be rude. If that was you, fine. I happen to disagree with your definition of spam in this particular instance, and yet may wholeheartedly agree with you some time in the future.

If I'm not mistaken, the banner ads you're talking about need to be clicked before CMF gets their penny or two. As we have just learned, different web browsers present different views of this site. My PC browser has an AD Blocker, so I don't see those; my iPad doesn't, and the site is cluttered with ads. I think those ads are automatically inserted based on cookies or trackers; they're supposed to be targeted, but I have doubts that it's very accurate - so low click count?

In any case, the owners are going to make some kind of decision regarding sponsored posts appearing in threads. If it turn out not to be to your liking, I hope you can find a way to adjust your kilter, and stick around to continue posting your opinion.

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AltaRed

· #40 · Oct 31, 2017

Userkare said:
In any case, the owners are going to make some kind of decision regarding sponsored posts appearing in threads. If it turn out not to be to your liking, I hope you can find a way to adjust your kilter, and stick around to continue posting your opinion.

I use Ad Blockers in my PC browsers. I don't access this site with my iPad on purpose. If the owners don't control in-thread SPAM (I am with OMO on this), they could lose some members. That is the problem with going commercial.

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