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I think the governments are afraid to deal with possible voters and the police are told not to arrest by the same government
jam tarts without courts issuing injunctions. A sorry state of affairs. If you notice the demonstrators there are more whites than natives. Guess they took the day off from work?
Cheers
Doc
 

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Well if you seriously want an answer to your question lonewolf, I suggest you do some research. Start with this: http://www3.brandonu.ca/cjns/11.2/laforme.pdf

But if you aren't willing to take the time to read ALL of it, you need to realize it is not a simple question with a simple answer.

A simple description (but not enough to really develop a real understanding) would be the following. There is an ongoing argument regarding the 'sovereignty' of indigenous people. In this current situation, the argument is being made that as a sovereign nation they have the right to refuse the railway passage across their land. That as a sovereign nation, they are not subject to the laws of Canada and do not recognize the courts of Canada. That is the basis on which those blocking the railway are acting.

So the court can rule that it is an illegal act (as they have in this instance) to block the railway but if those protesting do not RECOGNIZE the courts right to rule, then they ignore it. That then leaves the government in the position of having to use force to remove them. Of course, as soon as they use force, it gets all the so called, 'bleeding heart liberals' upset.

And jargey3000, as far as 'who won the war', no one did. Again, referring to the link above, it is all about treaty rights and what they mean in terms of sovereignty.
 

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And jargey3000, as far as 'who won the war', no one did. Again, referring to the link above, it is all about treaty rights and what they mean in terms of sovereignty.
Treaty rights extend both ways...illegal blockades are breaking the treaties. And, if you read them closely you would discover that many of the "rights" they claim they to have as a sovereign nation don't exist. They are not their own nation.
 

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There is an ongoing argument regarding the 'sovereignty' of indigenous people. In this current situation, the argument is being made that as a sovereign nation they have the right to refuse the railway passage across their land. That as a sovereign nation, they are not subject to the laws of Canada and do not recognize the courts of Canada. That is the basis on which those blocking the railway are acting.

the wet'suwet'en protest against what they regard as illegal trespass upon their territory is neither an argument nor is it current. The principle is already embedded in canadian law.

in 2012 the supreme court of canada, sitting under chief justice Beverley mcLachlin, ruled that indigenous nations that had never ceded their territory to european-descended settlors - ie no treaty - are to enjoy the rights of sovereign owners of such lands.

the wet'suwet'en clans have never negotiated any treaty. This is the backbone of their legal position & it's a powerful one.

i haven't read all the opinions of the sitting SC justices on this matter (neither has anyone else in this forum); however i'm of a mind that chief justice mcLachlin would never have stomped all over the accumulated rights of the white settlors who live within, or seek to carry on business within, the hereditary clans' territories.

non-aboriginal settlors have lived, thrived & prospered in canada for going on 500 years now; they also have acquired rights as dwellers upon the same mother Earth, living under the same father Sky. In the end, we must all get along together.

peering far ahead, one would believe that the hereditary chiefs in the vast wet'suwet'en territory east of kitimat will eventually come to accept the pipeline. But - judging from their fury today - the necessary negotiating process ciykd take years.

farther to the south, the federal negotiating process with the indigenous opponents to transMountain Pipe II took only two or three years. It has been successul enough to start construction of TMP II, even though a few indigenous protest remnants still remain.

but in northewest BC, east of kitimat, there's been no negotiation with the network of hereditary clans & chieftains. That's one heck of an enormous piece of work & it's only just starting to come into focus. One could reasonably expect that resolving the wet'suwet'en crisis could easily take 5 more years.

in the meantime, i'm relieved & happy that the level-headed PM is not unleashing army, guns, jail or other violence. What's woken up across canada is another Oka. Just as native chiefs from as far away as BC thronged to Oka to join the Mohawk protest against destruction of their cemetery at Oka, we can see that indigenous communities across canada are rallying to support the hunters, trappers & fisher folk of the BC far northwest hereditary clans.
 

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Personally I blame Harper for all this turmoil and strife.

sags i look at it this way: centuries of sclerosed, frozen injustices, prejudices & racist acts have finally broken open under the gummint of justin trudeau. In whose thinking, all these past years, the views of his wife Sophie have played no small role BTW. Working to improve the fortunes of indigenous canadians was one of the first campaign principles the couple vowed to embrace way back in early 2015.

we're seeing turmoil like canada has not seen for a century in the zone of indigenous nation governance, that is for sure. Turmoil because progress is never even-steven. Progress is vivid, colourful, gutsy, even chaotic. Forward 2 steps here, backward one step there.

imho what we're witnessing is an epoch-shattering period in indigenous/canadian history. For the first time, many canadians are talking eagerly about coming together as partners in the stewardship of the lands we hold in common. Me i see more opportunity today for indigenous nations to build & change their fortunes than history has seen all these past 500 years.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
sags i look at it this way: centuries of sclerosed, frozen injustices, prejudices & racist acts have finally broken open under the gummint of justin trudeau. In whose thinking, all these past years, the views of his wife Sophie have played no small role BTW. Working to improve the fortunes of indigenous canadians was one of the first campaign principles the couple vowed to embrace way back in early 2015.

we're seeing turmoil like canada has not seen for a century in the zone of indigenous nation governance, that is for sure. Turmoil because progress is never even-steven. Progress is vivid, colourful, gutsy, even chaotic. Forward 2 steps here, backward one step there.

imho what we're witnessing is an epoch-shattering period in indigenous/canadian history. For the first time, many canadians are talking eagerly about coming together as partners in the stewardship of the lands we hold in common. Me i see more opportunity today for indigenous nations to build & change their fortunes than history has seen all these past 500 years.
The unintended consequences of government action to try to solve a problem just makes matters worse. Kinda like the lady that swallowed a fly then ate a frog to kill the fly etc, etc.
 

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in the meantime, i'm relieved & happy that the level-headed PM is not unleashing army, guns, jail or other violence. What's woken up across canada is another Oka. Just as native chiefs from as far away as BC thronged to Oka to join the Mohawk protest against destruction of their cemetery at Oka, we can see that indigenous communities across canada are rallying to support the hunters, trappers & fisher folk of the BC far northwest hereditary clans.
It's a delicate situation and could go very badly. I hope for the best.

The indigenous groups have valid complaints and they have rights here. They are standing up for their rights.

People with a resource extraction/development mentality don't seem to understand the message from land owners. The message should be clear now: no, you cannot simply go develop arbitrary land in Canada (in this case through this part of BC) without getting agreement from the owners of the land.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/11/canada-pipeline-indigenous-trudeau-treaty

swaths of territory – never signed away by treaty or seized in war – still belong to indigenous nations who are fighting back against resource projects they say they never consented to.

Unlike the rest of the country – where relationships between indigenous groups and the state are governed by treaties – few indigenous nations in British Columbia ever signed deals with colonial authorities, meaning the federal government still operates in a vacuum of authority on their lands, said Gordon Christie, a scholar of indigenous law at the University of British Columbia
And this isn't even getting into the topic of how the government continually violates treaty rights, breaking the nature of the established treaties.
 

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It's a delicate situation and could go very badly. I hope for the best.

The indigenous groups have valid complaints and they have rights here. They are standing up for their rights.

People with a resource extraction/development mentality don't seem to understand the message from land owners. The message should be clear now: no, you cannot simply go develop arbitrary land in Canada (in this case through this part of BC) without getting agreement from the owners of the land.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/11/canada-pipeline-indigenous-trudeau-treaty



And this isn't even getting into the topic of how the government continually violates treaty rights, breaking the nature of the established treaties.
I understand that perspective.
However
1. Blocking railways in Ontario is a separate issue than opposing a development project in BC.
2. They have permission from the landowners.

Once the protestors started assaulting people, there is a decision to be made.
The Canadian police can step in and hold people accountable for those assaults, or they can let it degrade into a free for all.

Or they can take the path of giving the protestors a free pass to assault, while prosecuting the victims of their crimes.
Lots of Canadians don't like this. It's a breakdown of law and order, and an assault on our democracy.

If the land is not under Canadian jurisdiction. That's a dangerous path.
 

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I winced a little when I saw the term "natives" in the OP. The PC term, as I understand it, is "first peoples" or Indigenous Canadians.
This is a bigger story than simply shutting down a rail line.
In the Vancouver area, the indigenous community wields significant power. There have been some real successes that are inspiring and one hopes will lead to a better picture in the coming decade.
An interesting article was in the sun yesterday
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/val-litwin-what-is-the-ultimate-goal-of-the-non-indigenous-groups-involved-in-shutdowncanada
 

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I have to say that Rex Murphie's article in the Post today sums up my position on this perfectly.

"Justin Trudeau has been a week now waltzing around Africa while, day by day back here in carbon-tax Canada, the country is seizing up. For the same past seven days apparently, Canada has been under the administration of what the media insists on calling “anti-pipeline” forces".

"Anti-pipeline is far too narrow. These are the anti-industry, anti-energy, anti-Alberta, climate-change save-the-worlders who have been harassing the country for years. The difference is in the past week they’ve upped their opposition, and from one end of the country to another decided to muscle their way to a victory by a storm of blockades, protests, traffic obstruction, and in the case of Victoria, B.C., actually shutting down the people’s legislature".

"How did Canada get to this point? Easy. The elevation of the doomsday cult of global warming, the insistence that Canada has some unique and precious role in saving the planet, the hostility to the oil industry that is the logical extension of that attitude has given vast license to anti-oil types to more or less do what they want".

"Environmentalists think they are a group apart. If 10 plumbers shut down a railway, or if loggers shut down the B.C. legislature, or if oil workers decided to “shut down Canada,” the RCMP and every security force in the nation would round them up, clap on the handcuffs and stow them away in a cell in a jiffy. But a few native bands, and the always available professional protesters who we have seen active since the days of the Seattle riots, decide to ride on the oil issue, and everyone in authority stands aside mute and fearful".

"And our always itinerant prime minister, on another vainglorious question — this time for a useless seat on the useless UN Security Council — urges “all sides to resolve this as quickly as possible."

"Meantime we are days away from the most significant policy decision this government will make — presuming it remains the government, which in the present circumstances is an open question — the Teck oilsands mine".

"Mr. Trudeau should be home. I know this is an agreeable time of year to be touring Africa, but a week under the carbon-taxed skies of Alberta or Saskatchewan right now would be so much more appropriate and useful".

"Oh yes, not one in a hundred Canadians, and I’m being generous, gives a damn about Canada getting a seat on the security council".

ltr
 

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I winced a little when I saw the term "natives" in the OP. The PC term, as I understand it, is "first peoples" or Indigenous Canadians.
This is a bigger story than simply shutting down a rail line.
In the Vancouver area, the indigenous community wields significant power. There have been some real successes that are inspiring and one hopes will lead to a better picture in the coming decade.
An interesting article was in the sun yesterday
https://vancouversun.com/opinion/val-litwin-what-is-the-ultimate-goal-of-the-non-indigenous-groups-involved-in-shutdowncanada


glad to c u checking in on this thread

dubhmac we are counting on you to report true facts on this complicated issue as viewed from vancouver

meanwhile - schui la voix de l'est icit - the OPP & possibly the mounties may eventually have to clear the rail blockade by the Tyendinaga mohawk nation at desoronto ontario (the location just west of belleville). But not yet.

it won't be any surprise to the tyendinaga mohawk, they've frequently blocked the rail lines in the past to make a point, so taking down the rail blockade one more time should not be a national crisis

however, mucho discussion should be allowed to take place before the forces move in. Felicitations to BC premier who has already managed to secure sit-down talk sessions with groups related to the wet'suwet'en.

meanwhile federal transport minister marc garneau & federal indian affairs minister marc miller are seeking talks/already talking with indigenous rail blockers in ontario & quebec (the kanawake mohawk are blocking a local commuter railway into montreal). Manitoba premier also said to be vigourously pursuing all communication avenues from his end.

a key blockade though are the Tyendinaga mohawk. They are a kind of bell-wether for native obstruction everywhere. Here's a tidbit of history: did ya'll know that they were originally from the kanesatake mohawk settlement at Oka, quebec?


* * * * *


it's a very, very, very long history. It began way back in the 16th century, long before canada ever existed. The french settled in new france to gain the fur trade. The Sulpician religious brothers promptly arrived to "look after" the religious, moral, medical & material needs of both the french settlers & the indigenous mohawk fur traders who were immediately attracted to the french fur buyers.

alcohol & smuggled fur trading soon entered the picture & the Sulpicians kept moving their "mission pour les sauvages" farther & farther away from what is now the Old Port district of ancient montreal. Eventually, sometime in the 18th century, the french king gave the Sulpicians the seigneurie at Oka as a kind of usufruct. The religious order was to hold the seigneurie in trust for the benefit of the indigenous natives ("les sauvages") who were entrusted to their care. Notice that king Louis XIV of france did not give the seigneurie to the religious brothers in outright ownership; they were only to hold the seigneurie as long as they would maintain their charitable mission for indigenous natives. Most in the Sulpicians' care, although not all, were Mohawk.

alas, things did not go well at Oka. The Mohawk were - & still are - a fairly aggressive & skilled trading nation. Understandably they resented the high-handed, absolute & lordly control of the Sulpician religious brothers. In fact, the Mohawk at Oka were forced to labour the Sulpicians's farm in slave-like conditions. Understandly, whenever they could, they rebelled.

in the late 19th century a major armed Mohawk uprising occurred in the Oka settlement. The Mohawk managed to burn down their Sulpician overlords' residence & also their roman catholic chapel. Miraculously, nobody died on either side. Following this insurrection, a splinter group of Mohawk either spontaneously left Oka or else they were expelled from Oka.

the splinter group travelled not too far into ontario, settling just west of what is now belleville, ontario, to form the Mohawk Tyendinaga nation, which survives today & routinely blocks the nearby railway lines in sympathy during times of acute indigenous peril or concern.

it's an old story. Despite the serious national concerns, ottawa is handling things exactly right imho. Walk softly. Seek meetings. Communicate. Negotiate to get them off the rails. This has always worked before with the tyendinaga mohawk. Preventing the stage of guns & crossfire is crucial.
 

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I have to say that Rex Murphie's article in the Post today sums up my position on this perfectly.

"Justin Trudeau has been a week now waltzing around Africa while, day by day back here in carbon-tax Canada, the country is seizing up. For the same past seven days apparently, Canada has been under the administration of what the media insists on calling “anti-pipeline” forces".

"Anti-pipeline is far too narrow. These are the anti-industry, anti-energy, anti-Alberta, climate-change save-the-worlders who have been harassing the country for years. The difference is in the past week they’ve upped their opposition, and from one end of the country to another decided to muscle their way to a victory by a storm of blockades, protests, traffic obstruction, and in the case of Victoria, B.C., actually shutting down the people’s legislature".

"How did Canada get to this point? Easy. The elevation of the doomsday cult of global warming, the insistence that Canada has some unique and precious role in saving the planet, the hostility to the oil industry that is the logical extension of that attitude has given vast license to anti-oil types to more or less do what they want".

"Environmentalists think they are a group apart. If 10 plumbers shut down a railway, or if loggers shut down the B.C. legislature, or if oil workers decided to “shut down Canada,” the RCMP and every security force in the nation would round them up, clap on the handcuffs and stow them away in a cell in a jiffy. But a few native bands, and the always available professional protesters who we have seen active since the days of the Seattle riots, decide to ride on the oil issue, and everyone in authority stands aside mute and fearful".

"And our always itinerant prime minister, on another vainglorious question — this time for a useless seat on the useless UN Security Council — urges “all sides to resolve this as quickly as possible."

"Meantime we are days away from the most significant policy decision this government will make — presuming it remains the government, which in the present circumstances is an open question — the Teck oilsands mine".

"Mr. Trudeau should be home. I know this is an agreeable time of year to be touring Africa, but a week under the carbon-taxed skies of Alberta or Saskatchewan right now would be so much more appropriate and useful".

"Oh yes, not one in a hundred Canadians, and I’m being generous, gives a damn about Canada getting a seat on the security council"




it's such a pity about rex murphy. He's turned into another one of those sputtering, spewing, perpetually angry old mouthpieces. Not even making sense any more. What has coastal gasLink gas pipeline to kitimat got to do with permitting another tar sands mine in alberta that's currenty owned by Teck?

in his old age, rex m. has become a destroyer of canada. Never anything to say except explosive filth.
 

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I have to say that Rex Murphie's article in the Post today sums up my position on this perfectly.

"Justin Trudeau has been a week now waltzing around Africa while, day by day back here in carbon-tax Canada, the country is seizing up. For the same past seven days apparently, Canada has been under the administration of what the media insists on calling “anti-pipeline” forces".

"Anti-pipeline is far too narrow. These are the anti-industry, anti-energy, anti-Alberta, climate-change save-the-worlders who have been harassing the country for years. The difference is in the past week they’ve upped their opposition, and from one end of the country to another decided to muscle their way to a victory by a storm of blockades, protests, traffic obstruction, and in the case of Victoria, B.C., actually shutting down the people’s legislature".

"How did Canada get to this point? Easy. The elevation of the doomsday cult of global warming, the insistence that Canada has some unique and precious role in saving the planet, the hostility to the oil industry that is the logical extension of that attitude has given vast license to anti-oil types to more or less do what they want".

"Environmentalists think they are a group apart. If 10 plumbers shut down a railway, or if loggers shut down the B.C. legislature, or if oil workers decided to “shut down Canada,” the RCMP and every security force in the nation would round them up, clap on the handcuffs and stow them away in a cell in a jiffy. But a few native bands, and the always available professional protesters who we have seen active since the days of the Seattle riots, decide to ride on the oil issue, and everyone in authority stands aside mute and fearful".

"And our always itinerant prime minister, on another vainglorious question — this time for a useless seat on the useless UN Security Council — urges “all sides to resolve this as quickly as possible."

"Meantime we are days away from the most significant policy decision this government will make — presuming it remains the government, which in the present circumstances is an open question — the Teck oilsands mine".

"Mr. Trudeau should be home. I know this is an agreeable time of year to be touring Africa, but a week under the carbon-taxed skies of Alberta or Saskatchewan right now would be so much more appropriate and useful".

"Oh yes, not one in a hundred Canadians, and I’m being generous, gives a damn about Canada getting a seat on the security council".

ltr
ditto
 
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