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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
This one is straight forward. They are selling the house and every cent on costs is lost profit. Why would the builder pay for a water tank, heater when someone else is happy to do so? The recurring cost is paid by the eventual home owner.
You're telling me $800k home builders are eking out a living on water tank rentals? Why don't they rent out the HVAC, toilets and everything else?

The original questions still stands. Why are Ontarians the only ones who fall for this sham?

This article is from 4 years ago.. rates have gone up with inflation now

The monthly rate for so-called tankless systems is commonly in the $40 range and the “contracts” do not have an end date. Buyouts are possible, but begin in the thousands.
You can buy your dream home, but hot water heater only for rent
 

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Here you are again, just jumping into other people's threads to take a jab at them.
... who jabbed who first? Why don't you start with the title of the thread? "Ontarians" are SOOOO BAD at 'basic" finances which means being "financially illiterate". Do I need to re-explain this to you? And when i pointed out this would include other Canadians, I was re-jabbed with "so you're from Ontario" which you also noted in your post #14 with some emoji jibberishs, probably some slurs if not swearings. Aren't you from Mississauga (originally) and now some small town in the province of "Ontario", Canada? So you don't feel jabbed here? I wonder why??? See more remarks below for you.

Once again, contributing absolutely nothing of value to the forum. You only ever post insults, jabs, attacks and/or drama of some form.
... no, you contribute ALOT ... I can't help it if you're biased and can't argue or see a gun in front of you.

The very first post after your loonngggg hiatus (like years) from this forum, I was trying to be helpful to you knowing your youth. But you took it the wrong way or maybe that's your personality anyways and right off the back - you "swore at me" calling me a dick. No jab there, right? Swearing is not a jab?

And yes, I am going to continue to point this out in every single thread you feel it is necessary to pollute with your trash posts.
... go ahead, be my guest. You're the one with your own BIG MOUTH plus your postings, including pics. Still feeling sore about that pic with the receding hairline? I only spoke/speak the truth.

If you want to continue "polluting" my "trash" posts, then so be it ... I can get just as personal. In fact, if you're not afraid of skeletons in the closet, just continue to trash my posts. I double-dare you.

And that goes for m3s aka mode3sour also.
 

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We rent our hot water heater from Reliance. It cost $20.79 a month. We have been here for 15 years and this is our 2nd tank.

The landlord requires we rent the water heater, but is not involved in which company we rent it from.

I think the first one lasted about 10 years before it was replaced. It cost an average of $200 a year so......$2,000.

The second water heater is 5 years old and we pay a little more..........$250 a year so..........$1250.

Versus rental fees of $3250 over 15 years we would have had to pay for 2 water heaters installed, so I don't see much savings in ownership there.

We will likely need another new one in 5 years or so, so that would be another cost.

We might get longer life out of the water heater with a water softener, but that would come at an initial cost and the ongoing cost of salt.

A water softener would also need replacement or maintenance sooner or later.

I see no compelling financial reason for ownership.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
This blog is from an old CMF member from 2014

Water Heater Rentals: Do Ontario Residents Get Hosed?
"Direct Energy operates in both Ontario and Alberta, but despite more than one million water heater rental customers in Ontario, the company doesn’t rent water heaters in Alberta."

So how is it that Albertans have basic mathematic and financial skills that Ontarians lack?

Since that article was written, prices and terms have gotten so much worse. Ontarians not only don't learn but they are getting dumber
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
We rent our hot water heater from Reliance. It cost $20.79 a month. We have been here for 15 years and this is our 2nd tank.
Shining example
 

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You're telling me $800k home builders are eking out a living on water tank rentals? Why don't they rent out the HVAC, toilets and everything else?
No. I am telling you a builder like any good business owner is focused on costs. Why would they pay for a water tank when another company is happy to provide it for free? The eventual owner, which I concur makes no economic sense, pays a fee to rent from the utility company. Those savvy enough just ask for it to be removed and then put in their own.

I have no position on the answer to your broader question on why people fall for it, or don't remove it.
 

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You can see it everywhere. I have lived in many provinces and several countries. No other demographic region in the developed world is this financially inept.

Take the water tank rentals as a very simple example. Nearly all Ontarians think it is perfectly acceptable to rent a water tank with an open ended contract. If they could just do 30 seconds of elementary school math they would realize that it only takes a few years for this to be a bad deal ...
Why would you ever rent a hot water tank?
I've never understood it either, i.e. renting a water heater. Really? Does one rent their furnace? their kitchen appliances?
OOH ... I agree and have gotten rid of rental water heaters.

OTOH ... there's the negative marketing and penalties that make is more costly to rip out the rental water heater.
Mine was already there for around fifteen years so the penalty for ripping it out was next nothing. I did have to take pictures that it was in good shape as other customers reported that they were assessed additional penalties for returning a "damaged" water heater.

For my friend, back in the days when a new replacement would have cost him $800 plus installation - his penalty to remove a five year old one was $1300. When he added up all of the costs - it worked better to replace it at about the twelve year mark.
Looking at the buyout table from a few years ago, for a five year old water heater tank, the buyout ranges from a low of $895 to $1555, depending on the model. Where one is going to have wait to see any savings plus have an upfront cost now - why bother?

Basically the builder has locked one into the contract where replacing it asap can be costly. Delaying to when it is more cost efficient can lead to the home owner being busy with life and forgetting about it.

IOW ... it is a racket where the builders and water heater rental companies are in league with each other.



As for renting a furnace and kitchen appliances - some do, though that seems to be more of a personal choice instead of a contract foisted on the buyer.



Cheers
 

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I suspect it's because they avoid paying installation up front. There's also a "don't worry about maintenance" aspect. Might be worth it to landlords (steady $, no surprises). Having no up front cost is also a great incentive for builders, if people are willing to pay the same for a house which is effectively without a heater ...
I believe the builders get money from the water heater company as well.

IAC, once the builder has done it - it is not as cheap as "rip it out, replace and start saving".
For less than a year old water heater tank removal - the buyout range from a few years ago is $1,100 to $1910.
It looks like one will have to pay double (once for the buyout and around the same amount for the replacement) plus installation costs.

Avoiding the monthly fees will help somewhat but not much.


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You're telling me $800k home builders are eking out a living on water tank rentals? Why don't they rent out the HVAC, toilets and everything else?

The original questions still stands. Why are Ontarians the only ones who fall for this sham?

This article is from 4 years ago.. rates have gone up with inflation now



You can buy your dream home, but hot water heater only for rent
They also offer HVAC rentals and service contracts.
I assume the water heater contractors pay a small kickback.

You miss a LOT of details if you don't have a good agent, and many new home buyers don't have agents.
For example AC was an add on to my spec home.

Payback on water heater is just a few years, FYI my rental died/needed repairs at 11 years, that's when I chose to replace it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
IOW ... it is a racket where the builders and water heater rental companies are in league with each other.
Nobody else in Canada falls for this racket

No state in the US does either. I never heard of any country in Europe doing this non-sense

So why Ontarians? And then why does everything else cost 10x what it should by basic math
 

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The landlords are just writing in the lease that the tenant pays the utilities and the hot water rental fee goes on the Hydro One bill ...
Odd ... the people I know and my hot water tank rental was on the gas bill, not the electricity bill.
Is this some sort of special arrangement?

I suspect the builders are getting some kind of benefit from it from the province or the water tank company. They are installing top end water tanks with features they don't even use ...
Agree on the builders getting a kickback from the hot water rental company and avoiding the costs, including installation fee.
I'm sure the rental company loves sending a crew to put in say twenty tanks, all close together in a new build area.

I am puzzled by the new features bit as the rentals I have seen are the same as one buys at Home Depot or Lowes. Nothing top end or additional features. Maybe it was something the landlord asked for?


... People are paying 15k for a 1k water tank. You don't even need a calculator to figure this out
Must be a broken calculator or something special to these numbers.

If I use the maximum fee from the install date to when my friend replaced his rental water heater, I get $4K for what was probably a $600 water tank. And that's a deliberate over-estimation as I don't have time to ask for the history of the original fee plus when/how much it increased.

Not a great deal but more than two times cheaper than your calculator.


Cheers
 

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Odd ... the people I know and my hot water tank rental was on the gas bill, not the electricity bill.
Is this some sort of special arrangement?


Agree on the builders getting a kickback from the hot water rental company and avoiding the costs, including installation fee.
I'm sure the rental company loves sending a crew to put in say twenty tanks, all close together in a new build area.

I am puzzled by the new features bit as the rentals I have seen are the same as one buys at Home Depot or Lowes. Nothing top end or additional features. Maybe it was something the landlord asked for?


Must be a broken calculator or something special to these numbers.

If I use the maximum fee from the install date to when my friend replaced his rental water heater, I get $4K for what was probably a $600 water tank. And that's a deliberate over-estimation as I don't have time to ask for the history of the original fee plus when/how much it increased.

Not a great deal but more than two times cheaper than your calculator.


Cheers
... glad I'm not the only Ontarian who is SO BAD at basic finances to see those over-exaggerated (polite term) numbers $15K rental costs for a $1K water tank even without a calculator. ROFLMAO.
 

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Nobody else in Canada falls for this racket ...
Those renting how water tanks in Quebec and Alberta will be surprised to hear that.


... So why Ontarians? And then why does everything else cost 10x what it should by basic math
AFAICT the main driver is the number of builders who put a rental into what they are selling.

Is someone really going to give up their dream house based on there being a water tank rental?
I doubt it.

Until something allows the home owner to cancel the contract without the large buyout, I doubt much will change.
Meanwhile, I'm happy with the switch and when selling - whomever buys will not be locked into a rental.


BTW ... if you doubt my numbers for what the costs are, here's an article saying a family figured out they'd paid $4K for 28 years of hot water tank rentals.



Cheers
 

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No. I am telling you a builder like any good business owner is focused on costs. Why would they pay for a water tank when another company is happy to provide it for free? The eventual owner, which I concur makes no economic sense, pays a fee to rent from the utility company. Those savvy enough just ask for it to be removed and then put in their own.

I have no position on the answer to your broader question on why people fall for it, or don't remove it.
And the answer is ... why pay the rental company $1300, pay someone to cut the old tank loose plus install the new tank and pay $1100 plus taxes for a new tank?

Basically, doing it ASAP can be costly - unless one is lucky to already have a reasonable buyout cost.

It's similar to figuring out what the penalty is for breaking a mortgage early. The difference does not guarantee that it is worth doing - without figuring out the full cost.


Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Agree on the builders getting a kickback from the hot water rental company and avoiding the costs, including installation fee.
I'm sure the rental company loves sending a crew to put in say twenty tanks, all close together in a new build area.

I am puzzled by the new features bit as the rentals I have seen are the same as one buys at Home Depot or Lowes. Nothing top end or additional features. Maybe it was something the landlord asked for?
You assume that your deal from 5-10 years ago is the same as the deals/contracts today.

I'm going off 2022 builds in Ontario. Comments online say they are installing fancy tanks with features that don't get used. With house prices skyrocketing in Ontario and inflation they have probably adjusted the numbers. It's now +$50/month for a hot water tank and breakeven is only a few years if you bought a more sensible tank instead

Ontarians are like blissful frogs in the gradually warming water

Those renting how water tanks in Quebec and Alberta will be surprised to hear that.
So were they born in Ontario and escaped, have parents/grandparents from Ontario or just spent too much time visiting Ontario and felt the need to rent?

There are many other examples. Vehicle insurance in Ontario is also insane.
 

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... who jabbed who first? Why don't you start with the title of the thread? "Ontarians" are SOOOO BAD at 'basic" finances which means being "financially illiterate". Do I need to re-explain this to you? And when i pointed out this would include other Canadians, I was re-jabbed with "so you're from Ontario" which you also noted in your post #14 with some emoji jibberishs, probably some slurs if not swearings. Aren't you from Mississauga (originally) and now some small town in the province of "Ontario", Canada? So you don't feel jabbed here? I wonder why??? See more remarks below for you.

... no, you contribute ALOT ... I can't help it if you're biased and can't argue or see a gun in front of you.

The very first post after your loonngggg hiatus (like years) from this forum, I was trying to be helpful to you knowing your youth. But you took it the wrong way or maybe that's your personality anyways and right off the back - you "swore at me" calling me a dick. No jab there, right? Swearing is not a jab?

... go ahead, be my guest. You're the one with your own BIG MOUTH plus your postings, including pics. Still feeling sore about that pic with the receding hairline? I only spoke/speak the truth.

If you want to continue "polluting" my "trash" posts, then so be it ... I can get just as personal. In fact, if you're not afraid of skeletons in the closet, just continue to trash my posts. I double-dare you.

And that goes for m3s aka mode3sour also.
I'm not going to hijack m3s' thread, so this will be my last post to you in here.

Yes, I'm from and live in Ontario, but I didn't take what m3s said personally and I agree with him - he is right. I don't see it as a jab.

As I said, which you may have read incorrectly, the receding hairline does not bother me. Apparently it only becomes worthy to mention by people who are judgemental. If I'm confident enough to post a picture, then obviously I'm content with my physical appearance.

Regarding the skeletons in the closet, if you want to waste your time digging things up from the past, you go right ahead. People are not perfect, and I own the things I have posted. That is life. They are not "skeletons in the closet" to me.

And yes - you were a dick. Remember when you called my ex girlfriend a whore? That was a good post. Not sure how you didn't get banned for that one.

@m3s The milk in the bags has always bothered me and it doesn't make sense. But there does seem to be a lot of cows in Ontario, too.
 

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If the people in the article had invested the money they would have spent on a hot water tank 28 years ago.........what would that be worth today ?

What if the original tank didn't last 28 years and they had to buy a 2nd or 3rd one ?

What if they had bought $1000 worth of bitcoins for 8 cents each and sold at $68,000 per coin.

Wowza !
 

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I'm not going to hijack m3s' thread, so this will be my last post to you in here.
... up to you.

Yes, I'm from and live in Ontario, but I didn't take what m3s said personally and I agree with him - he is right. I don't see it as a jab.
... of course, if you're biased basically. Like I said, I referred to Canadians, why just Ontarians and he goes "so you're from Ontario" of which you intercepted with some emoji slurs ... so what was that? Not a jab? Nope, not to you 'cause you wholeheartedly agree with the jabbing others. Ie. it's okay for you to do it but ain't for others and goes "waaaah, waaaah ... " and telling others to grow up.

As I said, which you may have read incorrectly, the receding hairline does not bother me. Apparently it only becomes worthy to mention by people who are judgemental. If I'm confident enough to post a picture, then obviously I'm content with my physical appearance.
... yeah, right. Then why bring it up in the other post, taking it "personally" if you so content with your physical appearance (which I don't care for either)?

Regarding the skeletons in the closet, if you want to waste your time digging things up from the past, you go right ahead. People are not perfect, and I own the things I have posted. That is life. They are not "skeletons in the closet" to me.
... sure sure sure ... then why trying to fish HP out with me? See the other thread. Repeat: Suggest you see a pyschologist.

And yes - you were a dick. Remember when you called my ex girlfriend a whore? That was a good post. Not sure how you didn't get banned for that one.
... okay, so you know re-acknowledge you SWORE AT ME, right after I tried to help you with a post which you took either the wrong way or not your way. Talk about being a small man in the first place. And don't accuse me of calling your girlfriend a whore. That's your interpretation. You were the one BRAGGING about not taking precautions ...and based on skeletons in the closet, the one plus one adds up. Do I need to go on more?

@m3s The milk in the bags has always bothered me and it doesn't make sense. But there does seem to be a lot of cows in Ontario, too.
... no jabs here - according to you, right? Yes, there're alot of cows in Ontario. Do you want to include the one that supposedly raised you?
 

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If the people in the article had invested the money they would have spent on a hot water tank 28 years ago.........what would that be worth today ?
.. he suggested apple and bitcoins stocks will give you 7 figures .... what a genius ... with a crystal ball too.
 
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