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I think the issue is you constantly promote masks as an always positive solution (they are not) and their use will make a large difference in the spread equal to all other measures, like distancing/isolation. Almost everyone agrees they will provide some level of additional control over the spread of covid but they are not near the top of the list.
I think you are mistaking my enthusiasm for any type of benefit as also saying that they have an ability to end the pandemic. I of course, never said that, nor do I believe it.

The overall problem is not the mask. It is the improper use of the mask, combined with the fact that people do not wear them all the time. Most people live unmasked for more time then they are masked.

Can't you see that in those studies, even if the mask did prevent infection 100% of the time (which it won't), it would not show up nearly as positive when they are only worn a smaller percentage of the time by the participants and usually handled improperly. Can't people see what I am saying here. If I recall the study did show a small benefit in reducing infections, which with the way people wear them is quite remarkable. However, when one considers they were primarily looking at reducing infections of healthy people and when people understand that a mask doesn't do that, the study is not relevant to why a person should wear a mask to protect themselves.

Again, a mask does not prevent infection. It can and does reduce the size of the infection a person obtains to a more manageable and possibly life saving lower dose.

Show me a study against that point and we may have something useful to talk about. Again, I would like nothing more then to toss my masks in the garbage. I am just not a fan of dying.
 

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Seriously ... you can't distance in a grocery store?
Sure, I'll admit that in my past 3 visits only 1 of the 3 was 100% distanced and the other two visits were 99.9% distanced (time wise) because an employee walked by me within 2m.
... I can but others can't or more like "don't". And when they do, they ain't doing it "properly" either. Instead of lining up 2 meters away (which you would think they got it by now, duh) or stand on the X spot marked for them at the checkout, they're right behind you breathing down your neck. And no amount of staring (behind a mask) gets them to back off either so I use a personal shopping cart (measures about 4 feet) to distance them behind me, short of telling them to "x#@! stand back". This is just the checkout. Going through the aisles is another story.

Anyhow, found another method to get around this, go shop right before the store opens or after the senior's priority hour, like 8 am- ie. no or less crowding. It's like enjoying the sunrise in bliss.
 

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Again, a mask does not prevent infection. It can and does reduce the size of the infection a person obtains to a more manageable and possibly life saving lower dose.

Show me a study against that point and we may have something useful to talk about. Again, I would like nothing more then to toss my masks in the garbage. I am just not a fan of dying.
We just keep going around in circles here.

You can continue to focus on small percentage gains (like reducing the size of the infection) while I'll continue to focus on reducing my chances of even getting the infection.

In regards to reducing the size of the infection, a few studies are showing (not conclusive) that some mouthwashes kill the virus. So everytime you go out now are you going to use mouthwash to help reduce the size of the potential infection? A lower dose could save your life right?
 

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We just keep going around in circles here.

You can continue to focus on small percentage gains (like reducing the size of the infection) while I'll continue to focus on reducing my chances of even getting the infection.

In regards to reducing the size of the infection, a few studies are showing (not conclusive) that some mouthwashes kill the virus. So everytime you go out now are you going to use mouthwash to help reduce the size of the potential infection? A lower dose could save your life right?
Why do you believe that anything I have said indicates that I am against social distancing. Of course that comes first. It's 100% effective.

So if it makes you feel better I will make the announcement now. Anyone who can guarantee that they will never come within 6 feet of someone outside their household can stop wearing a mask. There will be absolutely no problems in you doing so.

Does that make you feel better? Why do you want to distract things. This thread is about whether a mask has benefits for the average person or not. Your point has no bearing on that unless you missed this post of mine on how to use a mask. Specifically point #6:

HOW TO USE A MASK:

NOTE: Mouth/Nose transmission directly to the Mouth/Nose of another, is the most dangerous and deadly form of infection that one will receive during this pandemic. If one exposes themselves to this type of virus transmission, for a prolonged amount of time, anyone, of any age, of any health status, can become very ill, experience long term disability and may die. Social distancing (SD) is the best way to prevent this, but whenever SD cannot be maintained a mask should be used by all.

1) A mask should be of a multi-ply fabric, if possible. Cotton works well. It should fit well over your nose and chin and the more one can prevent air from flowing through the sides, the better.

2) Never touch the front of the mask where your mouth and nose are. If a mask needs to be repositioned, it should be done from the edges and done as little as possible.

3) A mask should be able to allow for normal breathing.

4) A mask should be removed from your face as soon as social distancing can be resumed. When removing the mask, look down, shut your eyes, hold your breath, remove the mask slowly from one ear to the next, holding only the straps. Now disinfect your hands.

4) A mask should be changed as frequently as possible.

5) Used masks should not be reused for a minimum of 10 days or they should be washed with soap and water.

6) Most Important: A mask cannot prevent infection to the healthy wearer. It can only reduce the severity of the infection one might obtain to a less harmful, more manageable infection that your body may be able to deal with. Therefore, it is imperative that you use them when social distancing cannot be assured and that you reduce the time, within proximity of others, to as short as possible, EVEN WHEN WEARING A MASK.
 

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This debate can be ended very quickly with the answer to one question:

If you had to come within 6 feet of a person who you knew had Covid-19, and was not wearing a mask, would you put a mask on as you approach them?

I am not asking if staying away from them is better. I am not trying to load the answer to what I want, either, but I would like everyone reading this to answer it. Because anyone that I have heard state that masks do not provide benefit have ALL qualified that suggestion saying that the exception for masks are healthcare workers.

Now think about that closely. Why would a mask protect a healthcare worker, when they are around infected people and not protect you? The only way that can happen is if you are either not wearing one OR you are not using a mask properly.

So this debate cannot be about the protections a mask can provide, since everyone must believe in their gut that they do provide meaningful benefit. It must only be about what is the best way to use them compared to the wrong ways, and that study, if it proved anything, was that we are not using them properly. Well I already knew that and is why I posted how to use them above. I am sure there are improvements, but what I posted should get you the most bang for your mask wearing buck.
 

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Why do you believe that anything I have said indicates that I am against social distancing. Of course that comes first. It's 100% effective.

So if it makes you feel better I will make the announcement now. Anyone who can guarantee that they will never come within 6 feet of someone outside their household can stop wearing a mask. There will be absolutely no problems in you doing so.

Does that make you feel better? Why do you want to distract things. This thread is about whether a mask has benefits for the average person or not. Your point has no bearing on that unless you missed this post of mine on how to use a mask. Specifically point #6:
Honestly and if I remember correctly (please excuse me if I've got the wrong person) you previously mentioned that talking to a contractor under 2m while wearing a mask on was ok when an easy solution to keep your distance is available. I think you said the solutions to keep your distance in that situation was too much trouble. This tells me you are placing a masks effectiveness at or above social distancing.

In any case, continue with your message, masks are good! :)
 

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Honestly and if I remember correctly (please excuse me if I've got the wrong person) you previously mentioned that talking to a contractor under 2m while wearing a mask on was ok when an easy solution to keep your distance is available. I think you said the solutions to keep your distance in that situation was too much trouble. This tells me you are placing a masks effectiveness at or above social distancing.

In any case, continue with your message, masks are good! :)
You took that as my suggestion that I think masks are better then social distancing. I will take a small part of the blame for that but of course it was not my intention. You say there is an easy solution but let me change the question a little:

Let's say the contractor came to fix a known big leak in the roof of your house. He was going to start the fix right away. It's going to rain tonight. The quote was a couple thousand higher then you expected. He is completely computer illiterate. There are no other contractors available in your area. Some of the terminology on the quote is technical and needs to be explained and he does not look very sick.

What are you going to do now. Ask him to mail it. Enjoy the rain tonight then.

That is what I meant by the question. When you cannot maintain a 6 foot distance, would you wear a mask. I am not asking for a debate on when that distance can or cannot be maintained. Each person will make that determination and I really don't want to debate all of those situations. All I am saying is that when it is determined that 6 feet cannot be maintained, you should wear a mask. Are we clear on that now?

Is that really what has prolonged this debate for this long. For that I appologize to you and i think many, many others.
 

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You took that as my suggestion that I think masks are better then social distancing. I will take a small part of the blame for that but of course it was not my intention. You say there is an easy solution but let me change the question a little:

Let's say the contractor came to fix a known big leak in the roof of your house. He was going to start the fix right away. It's going to rain tonight. The quote was a couple thousand higher then you expected. He is completely computer illiterate. There are no other contractors available in your area. Some of the terminology on the quote is technical and needs to be explained and he does not look very sick.

What are you going to do now. Ask him to mail it. Enjoy the rain tonight then.

That is what I meant by the question. When you cannot maintain a 6 foot distance, would you wear a mask. I am not asking for a debate on when that distance can or cannot be maintained. Each person will make that determination and I really don't want to debate all of those situations. All I am saying is that when it is determined that 6 feet cannot be maintained, you should wear a mask. Are we clear on that now?

Is that really what has prolonged this debate for this long. For that I appologize to you and i think many, many others.
No point getting into those one off "what if" senarios ... just try to figure out a way to maintain distance, like Beaver101 did a few posts back in this thread for shopping.

In any case, masks are manditory where needed, so use them if required. Sound good?
 

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Steinbach MB was the site of a large anti-mask rally recently. Sadly, people from all around the area came to participate in the rally. Steinbach now has a test positivity rate of 40%. A man in his 20s has also died.

40% positivity rate is bad, by the way.
 

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If only they had worn masks Manitoba would not have the outbreak it is currently dealing with right? Silly.
 

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If only they had worn masks Manitoba would not have the outbreak it is currently dealing with right? Silly.
I wasn't there so I can't share any first hand observations. In general, it seems Manitoba didn't take this very seriously.

Friends of mine said that in the last few weeks, stores were extremely crowded (e.g. Costco packed full) with inadequate space. One of my friends, in his 30s, was going to secret parties operated by bars / nightclub. This was a few weeks ago. He said there were all kinds of exciting events like this happening.
 

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If only they had worn masks Manitoba would not have the outbreak it is currently dealing with right? Silly.
Masks have been manditory for over three weeks now in MB and even before that there was high usage (my guess ~70%) in stores as the numbers went up.
 

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Masks have been manditory for over three weeks now in MB and even before that there was high usage (my guess ~70%) in stores as the numbers went up.
And we should remember that masks don't help if infections are happening in private / group gatherings ... e.g. drinks with friends, church services, family gatherings. Someone at CMF posted about having a 10 person Thanksgiving.

The fact COVID has been spreading like wildfire in Manitoba doesn't mean masks have been useless. Masks are just one "layer" of defense among many others. If people were doing large private gatherings, parties, and church services (and we know they were) the masks are irrelevant, because people don't wear masks in those environments.
 

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As we know, a person can be infected at numerous times throughout the day. There are many different ways a person can achieve this. I am pretty sure I just filled a page of posts reminding people that a person with a mask on can still be infected. Mask wearing or not wearing is obviously NOT the primary issue surrounding the world's current state of rising infections. It has been mandated in various jurisdictions around the world and in Canada for a long time now. During these mandates the infection numbers have dropped and risen. So as I said, please stop using infection numbers for your evidence of their benefits. Infection numbers obviously are not going to give you the evidence you are looking for.

The only major change that I can see, with respect to the current state of rising infections is the cooler weather in the northern hemisphere. Most assume it has produced the need to drive social gatherings indoors and that is where the increase in infections are happening. I agree with this, but I am keeping my eyes open as well.

As I have said, a precaution like mask wearing, where people wear a mask perhaps 2% to 50% of their waking day, and almost never during social gatherings, tells me that you cannot expect mask wearing to solve this problem. So I will repeat it one more time. Mask wearing is designed to save your life and/or make your infection easier to deal with. For the healthy person that is all it can do. It should help slow the infection numbers when the masks are on the infected person but as I just said, we just don't and can't wear them enough...and if we did there would then be other problems to deal with.

I suggest we focus on social gatherings until it is proven that those are not the problem. To me, that is the elephant in the room and I am getting tired throwing a bucket of water (mandating masks) on a forest fire, when it comes to actually dealing with the infection numbers. I am sure our government leaders were hoping the mandate of masks was going to turn the curve as well. That was foolish. Now it is time to do what needs to be done.

WE NEED THE GRINCH ! Can we flash a light signal in the sky or something? Someone has to steal Christmas and soon. lol
 

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Yesterday I had the full exposure to Translink. Bus to Lonsdale Quay, Ferry to downtown, Skytrain to east downtown, Bus back to West Van. The only real exposure was in transit between the various links. Impossible to maintain 6' spacing when entering the Seabus/bus. I did not feel particularly threatened because there ws lots of air flow.

While this was a legal journey, I was more under threat than dining with 6 friends at their home. The draconion rules are because of a few idiots. It is much like Trudeau's gun laws.
 

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Yesterday I had the full exposure to Translink. Bus to Lonsdale Quay, Ferry to downtown, Skytrain to east downtown, Bus back to West Van. The only real exposure was in transit between the various links. Impossible to maintain 6' spacing when entering the Seabus/bus. I did not feel particularly threatened because there ws lots of air flow.

While this was a legal journey, I was more under threat than dining with 6 friends at their home. The draconion rules are because of a few idiots. It is much like Trudeau's gun laws.
Really. Are we assuming any of the 6 people, at your house, have a pretty good infection going, at the time?

No. Social gathering, indoors, without mask wearing or social distancing is a little worse. Perhaps not by much, from what you describe, but definitely not much better either. IMO.
 

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Really. Are we assuming any of the 6 people, at your house, have a pretty good infection going, at the time?
That's an interesting question. If any of the 6 had the virus and everyone was socializing indoors, how would that compare to being in a busy transportation station outdoors. I suppose you'd have to use statistics to determine how many of the station crowd would have the virus compared to 6 people. I would guess the odds of one of the six being infected was pretty low. I assume that's why they set limits on numbers of people in a group of visitors.

ltr
 

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It is a good question. In my opinion, if those 6 people are around a dinner table or in the average living room and are there for a few hours, without masking, of course, it is a very, very dangerous place to be if one of them has an infection.

As for the public transportation. I certainly would not use it unless I had to, but if everyone is mandated to wear masks, and lots of hand disinfecting happens as you leave, no touching of the face, you do your best to keep away from people when you can, then that seems a little safer to me.
 

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It is a good question. In my opinion, if those 6 people are around a dinner table or in the average living room and are there for a few hours, without masking, of course, it is a very, very dangerous place to be if one of them has an infection.

As for the public transportation. I certainly would not use it unless I had to, but if everyone is mandated to wear masks, and lots of hand disinfecting happens as you leave, no touching of the face, you do your best to keep away from people when you can, then that seems a little safer to me.
Agree, that's my guess. You're done if any of those 6 is carrying the virus.

ltr
 
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