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I am going to add one last comment in hopes of stemming some of the wrong information some people have been taking from our recent rise in infections. Many here seem to look at those rising numbers as evidence that precautions, like mask wearing, must not work.

The analogy of mask wearing, as it relates to the C-19 pandemic is very similar to a forest fire. Lets say you were going to light a little camp fire to cook the fish you caught this morning. Lets also pretend that the forest is very dry lately so you decide to keep a big bucket of water available to put out any spread of fire quickly, that might come from your camp fire. As you watch the fire burn you will observe that for any little spark ups of fire that want to move away from the fire pit, the bucket of water does a tremendous job of stopping that spread, right in its tracks.

Now lets pretend you went for a 1/2 hour nap and when you woke up the fire from your camp fire has now spread out across 2 or 3 acres of land, and is spreading away from you, very fast. If you now throw the bucket of water on this fire, it obviously helps since water puts out fire, but as you can imagine it will appear to be not working at all when the size of the fire is so large and because of that, is spreading quickly through the forest. It just can't overcome that.

Covid-19 works just like that. The much larger number of current infections combined with those infections being invited indoors due to the cold, is so large that most precautions, other then not allowing non-household members inside your house, will appear to be not working at all. Obviously they work just fine, but the combo of high infections, indoors, is just too much negative for you to see this positive.

Knowing this, obviously if we had to choose between wearing a mask or not having non-household members inside someone else's house, the second one is by far, the one behavior that would show the most benefit, very quickly. We just can't seem to get people to do that. We are not even doing all that great getting people to see the benefits of wearing a mask. I would suggest we do both if we want to see the maximum results.
 

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Actually a clinical study doesn't support your opinion


One interesting result of the study was that 52 people in the face mask group and 39 people in the control group reported another individual in the home having covid-19 during the course of the study. Yet of those, only 3 actually developed covid. People sharing a home with someone with covid were really no more likely to get covid than people who weren't. This suggests that most covid infections happen outside the home, and is in itself something that would be an interesting avenue for further research. It also suggests that most people with covid are not themselves very infectious, giving support to the hypothesis that most infections happen through a small group of highly infectious ”super spreaders”.
 

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^
... It also suggests that most people with covid are not themselves very infectious, giving support to the hypothesis that most infections happen through a small group of highly infectious ”super spreaders”.
... most oxymoronic statement I have read in this thread.

As far as I'm concerned with this "pandemic", EVERYONE (you, me, him and her) is a spreader, with the asymptomatic ones being the worst. ...

Just like a highly educated ex-boss who never get sick since she has (supposedly) the cleanest (germ-free), neatest-looking, well-manicured pair of hands from NOT washing her hands after using the toilet.
 

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Actually a clinical study doesn't support your opinion


One interesting result of the study was that 52 people in the face mask group and 39 people in the control group reported another individual in the home having covid-19 during the course of the study. Yet of those, only 3 actually developed covid. People sharing a home with someone with covid were really no more likely to get covid than people who weren't. This suggests that most covid infections happen outside the home, and is in itself something that would be an interesting avenue for further research. It also suggests that most people with covid are not themselves very infectious, giving support to the hypothesis that most infections happen through a small group of highly infectious ”super spreaders”.
Please Eder. Re posting the same article that we spent so much time debunking does not make it more true upon the 2nd post.

I don't know who these 3 people were who did not get covid but is the author and yourself really believing that no one gets covid-19 indoors? Do you really believe that?

So although the infections went down in the summer while we were mandated to wear masks, they somehow are driving up the numbers in the fall? Is that also what you believe? Does anyone believe that?

Common guys. This is common sense and lastly, this is very important which I will repeat again. NOT ALL INFECTIONS ARE THE SAME. Sorry for yelling, but this is getting a little tiresome. I have stated, so many times, that it is unlikely that an asymptomatic person is as infectious as symptomatic people. What that means is if the person in these households were asymptomatic and stayed that way, it is very likely, especially if the other household members are young and healthy, that they do not get infected. That also is common sense but so far, not common knowledge. Are we really going to confirm that all the infections happened outdoors because of the outcome of 3 people? Good luck with that.

Anyway, I will leave it this way. If a person you absolutely had to get near to was covid-19 positive would you wear a mask when you get closer then 6 feet to that person who also is not wearing a mask? This is obviously a set up question, but my point isn't your answer, most have already said that people should wear a mask if around covid-19 positive people, like healthcare workers. My point is that if you agree a mask should be worn when near covid-19 positive people, and you know that you cannot tell who those people are, then is it not safe to say that a mask should be worn when near all people? By the way, that is all I have been saying. Am I wrong here?

Anyway, thank you for allowing me to repeat my views over and over again. I only do it, when it appears I am right and more people seem to be in need of the information. This board has allowed me to post about the benefits of masks quite a few times. I am sure people know my pointsvand with that, good luck to all.
 

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Of course you are entitled to your opinion...but disputing clinical trial evidence sounds like religion. At any rate an American study done on masks should be available on Dec 2.

It is not the same article btw...I doubt most bother to read this stuff anyway. As usual it is a waste of time.
 

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Of course you are entitled to your opinion...but disputing clinical trial evidence sounds like religion.
Yup, exactly.

Also note that link is someone's interpretation of a few studies, not their own work. That Dr. carefully uses "suggests" and "giving support" which is by no means a basis for an actual scientific conclusion.
 

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To say that people are not likely to spread COVID to others they live with is hard to square with the evidence. There are many clusters of spread within households, more than could be attributed to chance. The only way I can think of to square that is if all members in a household were exposed to the same superspreader outside the home. Possible, certainly.
 

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Of course you are entitled to your opinion...but disputing clinical trial evidence sounds like religion. At any rate an American study done on masks should be available on Dec 2.

It is not the same article btw...I doubt most bother to read this stuff anyway. As usual it is a waste of time.
I don't dispute all studies. I just dispute the ones that are wrong. I am sure I do sound like a religion. I am trying to help people. I am definitely open to removing my mask if you can ever come back with something that makes any logical sense.

Also, you did not answer the question about whether you would wear a mask if you needed to get close to someone who currently has C-19. It is an important point to determine if you really believe this nonsense either. I doubt your gut is completely sold on their results, but of course I don't know you well. I do think you have something between your ears so I suspect you are at least in doubt.

Most studies that I have seen so far, and I appologize for not reading the last one you posted, get messed up on what a mask can do and what it can't do. Everyone seems to believe that their only goal is to stop infections. That is the start of their errors. Some don't talk at all about masking the infected person, but when that happens, reduced infections should happen. As for the healthy, a mask cannot stop infections. Unfortuneately, most people think that is their job and therefore must not work. Anyone that looks at this problem closely will undoubtedly determine that a mask, on the healthy person, can only and most likely does, reduce the size of their infection to a manageable dose. Even when this happens, in most mask studies, these people who are now alive, who probably would not have been if not for their mask, will appear as if the mask failed. You see what I mean. I am not trying to be difficult. I am just looking at the problem we have. I wish the people who did these studies did.

Lastly, most of the data will get mixed up because I suspect masked infections are not the primary method for infections overall, since no one wears a mask all the time. Most people probably spend more time without one on then they do with one. Because of this last point, it would require a much, much larger sample so as to get any reasonable level of confidence in the results. Add to that the fact that many of the participants control the outcome (by what they actually do with their masks), it becomes very hard for me to go against my common sense with these types of results.

Sometimes I wish I could be so easily persuaded.
 

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I don't dispute all studies. I just dispute the ones that are wrong.
Do you mean you dispute the ones you don't agree with? :)

I am definitely open to removing my mask if you can ever come back with something that makes any logical sense.
Stay away from people ... 99% of the time, no mask required!

Just thought I'd mention that again as MB goes into near complete lockdown.
 

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To say that people are not likely to spread COVID to others they live with is hard to square with the evidence. There are many clusters of spread within households, more than could be attributed to chance. The only way I can think of to square that is if all members in a household were exposed to the same superspreader outside the home. Possible, certainly.
My friend in his 30s caught covid (he's overseas). He has roommates, and everyone in the house caught COVID.
 

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Yup, exactly.

Also note that link is someone's interpretation of a few studies, not their own work. That Dr. carefully uses "suggests" and "giving support" which is by no means a basis for an actual scientific conclusion.
There are also other studies that exist beyond what Eder is posting. There are also reports from the field, notably in the medical field (e.g. studies on NY health staff), which need to be taken into account.

There are many studies and opinions emerging from all of this, and the medical consensus currently says that masks DO help limit the spread.

Focusing too much on one particular study and one doctor's opinion / interpretation misses the point. Places like the WHO and CDC do look at broader data.
 

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Stay away from people ... 99% of the time, no mask required!

Just thought I'd mention that again as MB goes into near complete lockdown.
Avoiding people is in fact the most solid method to avoid catching COVID and limiting its spread.

Health officials remind us of the same thing. Avoid unnecessary travel, avoid unnecessary interaction with people.

I frequently go for walks outside and don't have a mask. No need, when there's nobody around.
 

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As I have said, the biggest issue with probably 90% of the public and I would bet 75% of the scientific community is that they still believe that a masks only job is to prevent infection. So far all the studies have looked into the issue that way. I can't even agree with their findings on that, because of their methods, but what is really frustrating here, is that we should already know that a mask on a healthy person cannot prevent infection. All they can do is save a person's life. Can we not get a study on that. I still think saving a person's life is something and should be worth wearing a mask for. Especially when it might be your own life or the people you care about the most.

Can anyone see why I am getting a little tired of being told that I don't like studies that don't agree with me. I love being wrong. Every single time it happened, after being corrected, I was more right. Why people find being wrong or making a mistake embarrassing I have absolutely no idea. I am as right as I am because of how many times I have been wrong in the past. That is how humans grow. There are very few better ways to develop unless you want to do it very slowly.

So if I am wrong here please continue to point it out. When someone does, I will admit it and correct my theories accordingly. Eder's studies, although well intentioned I am sure, does not do that. What I don't understand is why people cannot see that. Except for J4C, I feel like I live a lonely existence here. Is it really only me, J4C, the entire medical community and anyone that has ever fought a pandemic in the last 2000 years, that thinks masks can be protective during a pandemic?

Lastly, when infection numbers are skyrocketing and most people live unmasked the majority of their waking hours, the benefits of masks will start to look like the benefits of one bucket of water being poured on a forest fire (see my analogy posted previously). I don't think anyone will dispute that water can put out fire, but I doubt you will see much benefit of a bucket of water poured on a forest fire. Does that mean we should abandon the use of water for fighting fires. Do we then also abandon masks because they cannot stop the pandemic on their own?
 

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Unfortunately people can't stay away from others. They use masks as an excuse to get closer and closer to others. Very few cases in my community but they are not far away and it's only a matter of time. Public behaviors are only getting worse. More education is not going to help, people are already well away of the rules. A full lock down in certain regions may unfortunately be the only way
 

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The masks that are being used by the general public have limited protection. Not to mention that the average person does not have enough common sense to use them correctly. I think everyone needs to get their heads out of the sand (to put it nicely) People need to stay away from each other. Arguing over the effectiveness of masks is futile. People need to distance themselves from others, period.
 

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Lastly, when infection numbers are skyrocketing and most people live unmasked the majority of their waking hours, the benefits of masks will start to look like the benefits of one bucket of water being poured on a forest fire (see my analogy posted previously). I don't think anyone will dispute that water can put out fire, but I doubt you will see much benefit of a bucket of water poured on a forest fire. Does that mean we should abandon the use of water for fighting fires. Do we then also abandon masks because they cannot stop the pandemic on their own?
I think the issue is you constantly promote masks as an always positive solution (they are not) and their use will make a large difference in the spread equal to all other measures, like distancing/isolation. Almost everyone agrees they will provide some level of additional control over the spread of covid but they are not near the top of the list.
 

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The masks that are being used by the general public have limited protection. Not to mention that the average person does not have enough common sense to use them correctly. I think everyone needs to get their heads out of the sand (to put it nicely) People need to stay away from each other. Arguing over the effectiveness of masks is futile. People need to distance themselves from others, period.
... don't disagree with this. But you can't distance "properly" from others when in a grocery store, public transit, etc. for example. that's where the need for the addition of a mask.

And then there's work - wonder how long employers (for those who can) are going to continue/allow employees (sans government workers) to WAH ("productively") while continuing to pay a pretty premium on rent, another 9 months? LOL.
 

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... don't disagree with this. But you can't distance "properly" from others when in a grocery store, public transit, etc. for example. that's where the need for the addition of a mask.
Seriously ... you can't distance in a grocery store?
Sure, I'll admit that in my past 3 visits only 1 of the 3 was 100% distanced and the other two visits were 99.9% distanced (time wise) because an employee walked by me within 2m.
 
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