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Discussion Starter #221
1. I agree a mask worn by the general public will have little affect diesease spread.
I've been saying this for weeks.

2. A properly handled and work mask can help protect yourself and others.
I've been saying this for weeks as well.
Does it really matter what you have been saying? Is use of masks something that you are an expert and trained in. Not picking at you. Same applies to many in the West including those advising us and others posting on forums.

As I said before ( ;) ), go back to post #1 and read what someone who is an expert says. Are those millions of Chinese and Japanese using masks incorrectly. Are Westerners not smart enough to wear them correctly?

All very well to post views on the subject, but realize than no-one here has much first hand knowledge of the subject.
 

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Does it really matter what you have been saying? Is use of masks something that you are an expert and trained in. Not picking at you. Same applies to many in the West including those advising us and others posting on forums.

As I said before ( ;) ), go back to post #1 and read what someone who is an expert says. Are those millions of Chinese and Japanese using masks incorrectly. Are Westerners not smart enough to wear them correctly?

All very well to post views on the subject, but realize than no-one here has much first hand knowledge of the subject.
Well in terms of a discussion, reiterating that I've made the point repeatedly over weeks is contextually important.

I'm not an "expert in masks and PPE", but I have been trained in a variety of different PPE, Masks, handling of biological samples, and hazards in a variety of contexts.


I think the use of PPE by untrained people is problematic, and quite honestly, without the cultural or organizational norms on proper PPE use, I don't think the general population will be effective at PPE.
I some manufacturing plants, they're very good at sizing and putting in earplugs for hearing protection, at other plants they are very bad at it. I don't think PPE is as simple as many people think it is.

Consider handwashing, it's arguably the single biggest innovation in health, yet study after study shows terrible compliance, even in hospitals, by professionals, who really should know better.

If we can't get doctors and nurses to wash their hands, what do you think the chance of getting your average civilian to do so?


I think we should wash our hands, I think masks might be reasonable, but I think our Chief Medical officer has seriously screwed up the messaging on masks.
 

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I can't find a damn mask for sale anywhere. I'd wear one if I could find one. I ordered some on amazon a month ago but they shipped from china and still haven't arrived.
There are lots available on Etsy.com, look for sellers located in your area to get faster shipping (and read the listing, lots of them are back-ordered but some are shipping quite quickly).
 

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I agree that hand-washing is critical, is generally not done well enough (not enough compliance) and still ranks #1 in importance.

However given that we now have enough evidence that COVID-19 is spread through the air, when people share the same air space / close to each other, I think masks are a reasonable precaution. It ranks lower than hand washing in importance but I think it's still important.

I'm going to a bicycle shop tomorrow (phoned and schedule a visit) and will be wearing a mask - as usual.
 

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I know of another source of disposable surgical masks, recently ordered and got a pack. They appear to be of medium quality. If anyone is interested, message me and I'll point you to the web site. Not cheap; runs about $100 after shipping for a pack of 50.

Just FYI, this shipment just came in and I haven't opened and inspected them yet. They are still sealed in plastic so I can't say much about their quality.
 

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I know of another source of disposable surgical masks, recently ordered and got a pack. They appear to be of medium quality. If anyone is interested, message me and I'll point you to the web site. Not cheap; runs about $100 after shipping for a pack of 50.

Just FYI, this shipment just came in and I haven't opened and inspected them yet. They are still sealed in plastic so I can't say much about their quality.
The local Canadian tire had 5 & 10 packs of surgical style masks for $10-15.
 

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I agree, I think most people agree.
I'd just like to point out, that in my observations, very very few people are using them properly.

I've yet to notice a single person make a proper mask adjustment/application/removal in public.
To be fair, I've only been out a few dozen times, but virtually nobody is doing it right.

Even with gloves, I've gone to Canadian tire, they're making a show of wiping down the registers and surfaces, but nobody is wiping the PIN pad.

The big problem with masks & gloves is that they need to be used properly and consistently, or they're at best not helping, more likely they're offering a false sense of security.
What would a proper mask removal or adjustment be. I am asking because I am always trying to see if I can be doing it better.

The stores I am going to have been wiping the PIN pad, but I still don't trust them, and I have my own wipes for every surface that I have touch.
 

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Discussion Starter #230 (Edited)
I'm not an "expert in masks and PPE", but I have been trained in a variety of different PPE,
I spent a lifetime in the chemical industry. Sometimes in extremely hazardous processes. We had extensive training in use of personal protection equipment as well as regular updates.

Here we are not talking about an extremely hazardous environment that requires extensive training. We are just talking about improving the safety of the public when going about their everyday lives.

The public are not as dumb as you may think. We are able to learn how to put on a seat belt, brush our teeth, apply sun tan lotion, wash our hands after using toilet, look both ways before crossing a road and a host of other things that add to our safety when out and about. Procedures no less complex than donning a mask in a safe manner and instructions for use are available.

Making it sound as though safely wearing a mask is too complex for the average untrained citizen is a bit over the top, IMO.

Avoid if you can, but If you have to shop or be in contact with public, get masks and wear them! Just common sense.
 

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I spent a lifetime in the chemical industry. Sometimes in extremely hazardous processes. We had extensive training and regular updates.

Here we are not talking about an extremely hazardous situation that requires extensive training. We are just talking about improving the safety of the public when going about their everyday lives.

The public are not as dumb as you may think. We are able to learn how to put on a seat belt, brush our teeth, apply sun tan lotion, wash our hands after using toilet, look both ways before crossing a road and a host of other things to add to our safety when out and about. Procedures no less complex that donning a mask in a safe manner.

Making it sound as though safely wearing a mask is too complex for the average untrained citizen is a bit over the top, IMO.

Avoid if you can, but If you have to shop or be in contact with public, get masks and wear them! Just common sense.
We are able to learn those things.
But many people still don't put on seatbelts.

Lots of people don't floss their teeth, and some dont' brush regularly.
many don't use sunscreen.

The data on handwashing is absymal.

I'm not saying that people are dumb (they are), but in this case they don't know, and the proper behaviour isn't reinforced.

I never said that it was too complex, I said they don't know how.


For those who are interested, never touch the outside portion where external COVID19 would get "caught".
Don't pull it down and block your mouth, because then IF something was there, your nose would inhale it.

Simple, routinely violated, and you likely won't even notice you're doing it.
 

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We are able to learn those things.
But many people still don't put on seatbelts.

Lots of people don't floss their teeth, and some dont' brush regularly.
many don't use sunscreen.

The data on handwashing is absymal.

I'm not saying that people are dumb (they are), but in this case they don't know, and the proper behaviour isn't reinforced.

I never said that it was too complex, I said they don't know how.


For those who are interested, never touch the outside portion where external COVID19 would get "caught".
Don't pull it down and block your mouth, because then IF something was there, your nose would inhale it.

Simple, routinely violated, and you likely won't even notice you're doing it.

People do wear seatbelts wrong as they are not positioned properly for short people. Is it better that people just don't wear sealtbelts at all.
People don't floss or brush as well as they should, is this better than not brushing at all.
People don't apply enough sunscreen properly either enough, reapplying or the right kinds, is this better protection than no sunscreen
People don't wash their hands long enough or scrub well enough, so should they not even bother.

So someone wearing their mask incorrectly, does that provide more protection than not wearing a mask at all?

Going through your information, it is really not rocket science. I have read a many times. Even my 86 year dad with no access to internet does it right most of the time. I have to remind him not to touch the front, and he may do so on occasion, but because he sometimes doesn't do it exactly, does he have better protection.

As Agent said, young kids in Asian countries are wearing masks, will they always do it right, probably not, are you saying that they are better off not wearing any at all.
 

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Masks have their place but the general public have no idea what they are doing. They pull them on and off numerous time with their potentially contaminated hands. People tend pull them off to itch their nose, etc. One lady I noticed today was wearing a mask to service the public (great) while at the same time took her gloved hands, removed her glasses and started to vigorously rub her eye with potentially contaminated gloves. Some people are covering their mouth only - not comfortable, fogging up glasses etc. People using their dirty cell phone in the grocery store and holding it against their ears while wearing a mask! You can't cure stupid. Everyday I see this stuff. If used appropriately I think they may be able to provide some protection. My concern is that people may be putting themselves at more risk. I'm surprised we don't have a lot more cases. Employees at many of the essential stores not wearing PPE, work side by side other employees and don't seem to distance themselves appropriately from their clients.

Good luck to us all....
 

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Up thread Rusty mentioned copper masks. Copper is used in boat paints to stop algae growth. The paint can cause permanent skin damage if it comes in contact with skin. I had some skin damage scrapping off old paint getting a boat ready to repaint. It is recommended not to swim in water near boats that are painted with copper paint.

Maybe the copper in face masks is safe though I would look into it a bit before I wore a copper mask. If we were talking the black plaque I would be inclined to wear a mask if the science made sense to.

Money with an agenda is bending the science in regards to COVID so using a mask is not practical based on my thinking of what is happening.
 

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If cars were a good invention we would have evolved wheels... :rolleyes:
The first rule of life is to stop from dying, 2nd rule of life is to grow & multiply.. The first rule of life must be followed for life to exist on earth . I do not know of any species on earth that grows masks on their faces to stop from dying.
 

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The first rule of life is to stop from dying, 2nd rule of life is to grow & multiply.. The first rule of life must be followed for life to exist on earth . I do not know of any species on earth that grows masks on their faces to stop from dying.
In nature, there are many features that function to filter and reject foreign objects, such as nose hairs, mucous, cilia, etc. A mask is impractical and has downsides (harder to breath during exertion). My point about not evolving wheels is that wheels are useful but have not and probably could not evolve. Just because no species evolved paper fibre masks doesn't mean that such masks are not useful. Evolution favours getting genes into the future. The individuals are just instrumental. First rule of life is to replicate. Everything is subordinate to that goal, even survival of the individual.
 

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I see people wearing masks while driving alone, which is like wearing a condom while sleeping alone. These people will believe anything TV tells them.
 
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