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Unions perform or allow the same type of "Organized" employee services which the Chamber of Commerce does for employers.

It is a valued service.
 

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Unions perform or allow the same type of "Organized" employee services which the Chamber of Commerce does for employers.

It is a valued service.
If it was so valuable people would choose to be in unions, and union membership wouldn't be mandatory.
In fact, mandatory union membership is a clear violation of our constitutional rights. But of course lefties don't care about human rights.

Secondly unions engage in a lot of political activities that are outside the scope of the labour relationship with employers.
 

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If it was so valuable people would choose to be in unions, and union membership wouldn't be mandatory.
People try to join unions all the time but the employer has huge resources (threats and retaliation) to defend against it.

Why do employer's pay dues to the Chamber of Commerce? Because they know that if they organize as a group to lobby for government handouts they are more powerful.

Unions are the same.

I have some complaints against unions too .....

Union halls are owned by the parent union (Usually American) and not local union which paid for the union hall. When company closes down and the Canadian local union is decertified, the parent union owns the hall and property and not the community where the workers built the union hall.
 

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Unions were a valued service until they got greedy, forcing manufacturers to move their widget making facilities offshore.
Because corporations have no conscience, the shareholders decided that they were not going to pay the pensions and other obligations they made to workers since World War II. Corporations got too greedy and found a person in China who would act as slave labour.

When the corporations went off shore they saddled the governments of North America with all the pension obligations which they abandoned prior to the arrival in China. In addition, the corporations saddled North American governments with all the environmental damage and clean up costs on the abandoned factory lands and properties.

Remember the stories and the claims made? ..... "Americans and Canadians are not stupid. We Can compete."

But they allowed China to devalue the currency (Yuan) so that North America was unable to compete.
 

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Mandatory union membership means that those people who are hired after a new contract is signed can not claim to share all the gains made by union negotiations without paying dues or chipping in to cover the cost of negotiations.

My only complaint with dues is that the amount is usually a certain percentage of my gross earnings. If I work overtime I pay more dues. If there is a bonus system and I work really hard for extra money, I pay more dues.

I think that there should be a flat rate for union dues.
 

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Some companies need a union because management does not have the skills and personnel to deal with the work force. Mining companies are notorious for this lack of expertise. People who invest in this type of venture are usually the John Wayne type and need to be tamed.
 

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Sometimes a company demands that all contractors doing work on the property be unionized. That would be mandatory union membership.
Sometimes a company appreciates a union because they save the costs of a huge human resources department.
Sometimes union does a lot of work that normally is an employer responsibilty and the employer likes the union for this reason.
 

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The hardest part about being a union president is when the company fires somebody.

I hated those days. The guy would arrive at my office with his wife and she was probably holding a young child in her arms. I was their last hope. If I could not help them, they had to pack their house up and move out of town. It would be as if it was me who fired them and not the company.

You will never know how many illegal walk outs I orchestrated just because I could not tell the guy that there was nothing I could do for him and his family. One time the walk out was entering the second day and I had to go out and buy 40 large bottles of booze (union funds) and give them away so that the guys were too drunk to even think about work.

Most times these discharges are settled within a few hours. The company agrees to unpaid leave and stuff like that.

The biggest compliment ever paid to me by a union membership was when a company fired me and the workers refused to go to work until I was rehired. It took 3 days and the guys were willing to lose 3 days pay to back my play.

The company fired me because while operating a piece of equipment I damaged it. It was not negligence. It was because the company did not train me properly. I did not know that you should not down-shift while travelling down a hill. (You needed to down shift before starting down the hill and not mid way.)
 

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Capitalism has innovated and found ways to avoid unions and regulation. They created a whole new industry which they branded with the cutesy, loving term "sharing economy" 💕 ... in fact, it's just old fashioned capitalism. But this time, the workers have NO protections, no job security, no pensions, no safety oversight, and they are subjected to cold hearted robotic dismissal (rankings & ratings).

In fact the companies barely acknowledge that the workers are employees. They're rebooted capitalism and left labour rights in the dust.

Young people today, the ones doing all these deliveries, driving unregulated taxis, etc, desperately need a union. Amazon warehouse employees desperately need a union.
Sharing economy came out of the idea to actually rideshare (digital hitchhiking), actually provide 'couch-surfing', etc. The problem is that a reliable service can't run on only scraps, and once there is any real economic incentive to do it, entrepreneurs will systematize it and make it more cost effective.

I'm not sure how to create a union for gig economy workers unless you essentially ban the business model by making them employees. A lot of the appeal of these jobs is that you can choose your hours. Once you are an employee, your employer can start dictating when and where you work. Some of these gig companies like Instacart do this to an extent already.
 

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If it was so valuable people would choose to be in unions, and union membership wouldn't be mandatory.
In fact, mandatory union membership is a clear violation of our constitutional rights. But of course lefties don't care about human rights.

Secondly unions engage in a lot of political activities that are outside the scope of the labour relationship with employers.
There is an obvious free-rider problem if you can enjoy all the benefits of collective bargaining but not pay the dues. I'm not defending unions, just pointing out that it is not so simple.
 

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You will never know how many illegal walk outs I orchestrated just because I could not tell the guy that there was nothing I could do for him and his family. One time the walk out was entering the second day and I had to go out and buy 40 large bottles of booze (union funds) and give them away so that the guys were too drunk to even think about work.
You were incapable of performing your job but instead of stepping away and letting someone qualified take over you chose to organize illegal walkouts and then fraudulently use union funds to buy alcohol.

You should have been criminally charged.
 

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I once worked as a safety and health manager at a mine site.
It was during this time that Homer Sequin and the Steelworker union were just beginning to formulate the right to refuse unsafe work in Ontario.

I hated doing vehicle safety checks.
99% of the time the heavy duty equipment would fail a brake test.
It left me no choice but shut it down and reprimand the unionized operator.
With the equipment shut down, the company was not making money. Supervisors threatened me.
Supervisors accused me off being a "Meanie".
It was a unionized shop and yet the workforce felt the need to work in this fashion. The union members were not deliberately out to screw the company.
 

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There is an obvious free-rider problem if you can enjoy all the benefits of collective bargaining but not pay the dues. I'm not defending unions, just pointing out that it is not so simple.
Sure, but the point remains
1. We have a constitutional right to freedom of association.
2. Unions infringe on this right.
This has been argued that it is a reasonable infringement based on the workplace activities. I'm mixed on this.
3. The government has implemented unions where there was either no vote, or the vote was against the unions.
- It is very hard to get rid of unwanted unions.
4. In some jurisdictions. Ontario for instance, you lose some rights under labour legislation.

You claim a free rider problem. This is only if the non-union member gets treated in accordance with the collective agreement. That typically doesn't happen. In most cases the non-union members negotiate a superior contract, otherwise they'd join the union.
 

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Discussion Starter #375 (Edited)
Our son is in construction for a big company. They are unionized, and do large government and commercial projects. All of the companies involved are required to have a unionized workforce to work on those projects. The government (or other entity) wants the assurance that the workers are well trained and qualified. The union ensures their workers at the jobs follow the safety rules and are trained and certified in the necessary areas. He spent last weekend working on the Gardiner Expressway in Toronto. The government doesn't want inexperienced, untrained non union workers on those projects for good reasons.

Our son has training, experience and certification in several skilled trades, but is constantly receiving updated training through the union.
 

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Our son is in construction for a big company. They are unionized, and do large government and commercial projects. All of the companies involved are required to have a unionized workforce to work on those projects. The government (or other entity) wants the assurance that the workers are well trained and qualified. The union ensures their workers at the jobs follow the safety rules and are trained and certified in the necessary areas. He spent last weekend working on the Gardiner Expressway in Toronto. The government doesn't want inexperienced, untrained non union workers on the projects for good reasons.
You're mixing things.
The Ministry of Labour is responsible for ensuring that safety rules are followed.

The government wants to reward the unions who give them money.

The thing is IF those highly skilled union workers were better, they wouldn't need to make it a condition of the contract.

Everyone, even the people hiring them, know that if they had to compete on the open market, the union company would be less efficient, and not get the contract.

Plus the government will get back the money in union donations, either through cash, or work, or "third party" advertising.


To be clear I think you should have the right to join a union if you choose.
Similarly I do not think it is right to be forced to join a union if you do not wish to, nor should a union be imposed on a group unless a majority (50%+1) vote for it in a free election, ie secret ballot.

However I also think unions are political entities, and that it is inappropriate for the government, to support political entities with government funds.
 

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The government doesn't want inexperienced, untrained non union workers on the projects for good reasons.
When somebody gets hurt or dies and the Ministry of Labour is involved, the company is God awful thankful to have the complete expertise of the union safety and health department to assist the company in defending itself against the onslaught of paperwork.

It is not the employer who helps the worker complete his Workman Compensation application after the injury.

What used to really offend me about corporations .......

A guy sleeps in and then calls in to the company saying that he is sick and will not be reporting for work.

For years and countless years, the company would insist that the guy see a doctor before returning to work. The corporation would insist that they needed some type of assurance that the guy was "Fit" to return to work.
By the time the guy got an appointment to see a doctor and get the "Return To work Slip" was 3 days.

Obviously, the guy did his best to get to bed early so he would not lose 3 days pay.

For a Zillion years employers used OHIP to police/manage the employee absent problem. All the while refusing to negotiate "Sick" Days.

A lot of workers have "Slept-In" over the past 50 years.
Doctors did pretty good too.

Every Ontario resident paid a ransom which the company demanded each time the alarm did not go off.
 

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Also it should be as easy to decertify a union as it is to certify one.
As it is, the union leadership has it really good, and they arguably some of the most corrupt "governments" in the country.
There is a reason they don't want their finances public.
 

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Discussion Starter #379
So let people decide if they want to join a union or not ?

Fine with me. If they choose not to join, they can negotiate their own contract with the company.

I doubt people would fare very well in that scenario. The company could care less if they stayed or not.
 

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So let people decide if they want to join a union or not ?

Fine with me. If they choose not to join, they can negotiate their own contract with the company.

I doubt people would fare very well in that scenario. The company could care less if they stayed or not.
Hahahah, that's why they're fighting against free votes, and pushing to have union membership a mandatory condition for government contracts.
The union knows they're bloodsucking leeches.
 
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