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I have seen forecasts from the CPPIB where they may have to start spending "some" of the investment gains to pay for benefits to retirees in the future, but never seen any time period in the future where they spend any of the capital in the fund.
They should never spend the base capital.
That's a fundamental principle of perpetual pension plans.

From their own projections, the fund will just continue to build.
Because the number of people in the plan will continue to build.
Every time you add a person the fund should grow.


It's important to note that funds "capital" isn't the same as the participants contributions.
I suggest you read a basic intro to pensions, you don't seem to understand hwo they work.
 

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When pension plans have surpluses they often increase ancillary benefits or reduce contributions.

When they have shortfalls they eliminate ancillary benefits or increase contributions.

Changes to the CPP can be made through legislation.

The Liberals did discuss an increase to the CPP spousal benefit which would be a good thing.

They should also raise the life insurance from the maximum $2500.
 

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That isn't how it works in the pension world.

When pension plans have surpluses they often increase ancillary benefits or reduce contributions.

When they have shortfalls they eliminate ancillary benefits or increase contributions.
You're talking across yourself.

You started talking about base capital, now you're talking about surpluses and shortfalls.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about, you seem to be mixing and matching terms. I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I'll make my point.

CPP is a pretty good forced savings plan. It's well funded, offers a decent risk adjusted return, and appears well structured for long term sustainability.
The books are published and easily visible by anyone, and it's pretty much unanimous that it is a decent program. Not perfect, but you could make an argument that it is one of the better programs out there.
 

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The main feature of CPP is guaranteeing to everyone else that if Bill has decent income but can't manage his money, he is forced to save at least a pittance that will support him in his retirement without having to go on welfare (GIS).
 

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The main feature of CPP is guaranteeing to everyone else that if Bill has decent income but can't manage his money, he is forced to save at least a pittance that will support him in his retirement without having to go on welfare (GIS).
Unfortunately we need that.
Nobody seems capable of managing money unless someone forces them.

Individuals, governments, they're all out of control.

CPP isn't perfect, but it's a good program.
More people have retirement savings because of it, and the risk adjusted return is okay for most people.
 

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The main feature of CPP is guaranteeing to everyone else that if Bill has decent income but can't manage his money, he is forced to save at least a pittance that will support him in his retirement without having to go on welfare (GIS).
I would add to that, it's not just a safety net for people who can't manage their own money. It's also a safety net for people who suffer severe misfortunes (bad luck) which wipes them out, in various ways. I think that many of us tend to forget about the role of luck.

Bad luck can happen to any of us, too. There are countless examples.

Perhaps a severe injury or illness that holds someone back from working. Even simple old "chronic pain" can be debilitating and is not easily resolved; it can ruin someone's life. Perhaps legal trouble resulting in bankruptcy. Maybe they have a child who is handicapped, with tons of expenses. Or just misfortune among family members which drains money out of someone's life and makes it impossible for them to save their own money.

Many of these are not the fault of the person. I think it's also good to remind ourselves that these things could happen to us as well.
 

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I would add to that, it's not just a safety net for people who can't manage their own money. It's also a safety net for people who suffer severe misfortunes (bad luck) which wipes them out, in various ways. I think that many of us tend to forget about the role of luck.

Bad luck can happen to any of us, too. There are countless examples.

Perhaps a severe injury or illness that holds someone back from working. Even simple old "chronic pain" can be debilitating and is not easily resolved; it can ruin someone's life. Perhaps legal trouble resulting in bankruptcy. Maybe they have a child who is handicapped, with tons of expenses. Or just misfortune among family members which drains money out of someone's life and makes it impossible for them to save their own money.

Many of these are not the fault of the person. I think it's also good to remind ourselves that these things could happen to us as well.
They could, and they do.
But a lot of bad situations are the result of bad choices.

Some say it is victim blaming, but I've avoided or left many situations that weren't likely to end well.
 

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If the situation is bad now......considering boomers had it pretty good with jobs, wages, and pensions.......wait until the next generation of part time, contract workers gets close to retirement.

People with jobs are sleeping in their cars because they can't find a place to rent they can afford.

I can see the taxpayer cost of GIS climbing dramatically.

Decades of stagnant wages is going to have an economic impact.

Isn't a lack of money that the point of a UBI ?
 

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If the situation is bad now......considering boomers had it pretty good with jobs, wages, and pensions.......wait until the next generation of part time, contract workers gets close to retirement.

People with jobs are sleeping in their cars because they can't find a place to rent they can afford.

I can see the taxpayer cost of GIS climbing dramatically.

Decades of stagnant wages is going to have an economic impact.

Isn't a lack of money that the point of a UBI ?
People can't find a place to rent because the government discourages rental housing.

Yes GIS and other handouts will continue to increase in cost, that's why we need good sustainable solutions.

The point of UBI depends on your goal.
1. I think it's primarily a way to get a voting block, you get 1/3 of the voters hooked on free money, you're going to be perpetually in power.
2. UBI would be a very good wealth/income redistribution system.
3. UBI is seen as a way to address poverty.
4. UBI is better than the mess of systems we have.

I think there is overlap.
I think #4 is pragmatic.
I think #3 is IMO the most noble and well intentioned.
I think #2 is based on ignorance & greed.
#1, well that's just politics and the worst reason to support UBI.

Assuming it's #3, there are better options available.
For #4, I think there are many improvements that we can engage in without going to this extreme.
 

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Canada Recovery Benefit (CRB) program offers an example of why UBI schemes can hurt the economy.


Small-business owners say they cannot find enough workers willing to give up federal pandemic payments and take jobs, so they’re paring back reopening plans, potentially hampering the economic recovery.

Industry groups and business owners have warned for months that the Trudeau government’s Canada Recovery Benefit (CRB) program in particular has hampered efforts to bring back workers, incentivizing some to decline work opportunities in favour of staying at home for reduced pay.

“The government is empowering people to stay home and still get paid,” said Angelo Santorelli, president of Schomberg, Ont.-based Trisan Construction.
Trisan employs around 180 people and pays its operators anywhere between $22 and $28 per hour, Santorelli said. But he has seen workers across that pay range decline work in order to continue receiving federal benefits.
“It’s not as if we’re paying them minimum wage,” he said.


ltr
 

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Canada Recovery Benefit (CRB) program offers an example of why UBI schemes can hurt the economy.
CERB is a great real example of UBI.
They wanted people to stay home and not go to work. So people stayed home and didn't go to work.

If the goal is to have people stay home and not work, UBI is a great idea.
 

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Well, UBI is defined as not tying eligibility binarily to work. so any programs that feature that are definitionally not UBI, but rather some form of welfare/employment insurance.
 

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CERB is a great real example of UBI.
They wanted people to stay home and not go to work. So people stayed home and didn't go to work.

If the goal is to have people stay home and not work, UBI is a great idea.
The goal is to limit the spread of the virus. There's a pandemic going on, remember? The one that's keeping people who can't work from home getting sick at work because Doug Ford refused to reinstate the paid sick days he had cancelled.

It was bad enough in previous years that the same cold or flu kept circulating around the office because people kept going to work sick. Now people are ending up in the hospital because of that.
 

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The goal is to limit the spread of the virus. There's a pandemic going on, remember? The one that's keeping people who can't work from home getting sick at work because Doug Ford refused to reinstate the paid sick days he had cancelled.

It was bad enough in previous years that the same cold or flu kept circulating around the office because people kept going to work sick. Now people are ending up in the hospital because of that.
I agree, UBI/CERB are a great tool to encourage people to stay home instead of going to work.
In the face of a dangerous pandemic, I think it's a fine option.

However if you are paying people to not work there are serious mid/long term consequences.

That's specifically why I support UBI as a tool to shut down the economy in the face of the pandemic (go back to March/April 2020 when I said this). And I simultaneously oppose UBI, because it will shut down/damage the economy.

My reasons to support it in one exceptional context (COVID19 response) are the EXACT same reason I oppose it.
 

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Empirical studies don't support this conclusion. The data from experiments show that effect on workforce participation is quite limited.
I'd like to see those studies, all the ones I'm aware of are flawed. The Ontario study was by design, one of the most flawed.

That being said while I think UBI is a very bad idea, I strongly support removing the poverty trap aspects from our current social support systems.
 

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Canada Recovery Benefit (CRB) program offers an example of why UBI schemes can hurt the economy.


Small-business owners say they cannot find enough workers willing to give up federal pandemic payments and take jobs, so they’re paring back reopening plans, potentially hampering the economic recovery.

Industry groups and business owners have warned for months that the Trudeau government’s Canada Recovery Benefit (CRB) program in particular has hampered efforts to bring back workers, incentivizing some to decline work opportunities in favour of staying at home for reduced pay.

“The government is empowering people to stay home and still get paid,” said Angelo Santorelli, president of Schomberg, Ont.-based Trisan Construction.
Trisan employs around 180 people and pays its operators anywhere between $22 and $28 per hour, Santorelli said. But he has seen workers across that pay range decline work in order to continue receiving federal benefits.
“It’s not as if we’re paying them minimum wage,” he said.


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The owner is about $10 an hour below what experienced, qualified construction workers are earning with big unionized companies.

The big companies also offer extensive benefit packages and DB pensions., and are recruiting experienced trades themselves.
 
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