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Discussion Starter #1,261 (Edited)
Minor point, it will still be more money than we can afford to pay. Especially since we can’t balance a budget today without it. Unlike my son’s example where he pays his own way. Personal responsibility, not government handouts.

btw, disability isn’t a limit when it comes to investing. I started when injured in an accident and couldn’t work for several years, I needed an income and didn’t qualify for Any government assistance. When you really need to survive, most people will find a way. The people I know on a government subsidy, rarely change their situation as it’s comfortable enough with the free money.
 

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So, you support eliminating welfare, disability, child benefit and GIS/OAS? Personal responsibility and not handouts, right?

I don't even know what you mean by saying 'we can't afford one'. We already have a low level UBI, in the form of HST rebates, etc. It just isn't called a UBI. The only thing we are talking about is the level and streamlining.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,263 (Edited)
No, I wouldn’t want people to have to go through what I did. I have no problem with social programs as long as we can afford them, meaning balance the budget. I don’t believe in long term government support either though. I work almost daily with the poor, most of which will never change because of the programs.

i, on the other hand, now have wealth, not because I was on a government program, but because I wasn’t. The pain of my situation was the motivation for me to learn how I could change it. i sacrificed to save up a little money to start investing, I didn’t start with thousands, I built it slowly. I don’t see how my reward should be the bill for those who don’t even try.

I think the education system needs a major overhaual. Quit teaching people how to work a job, teach them how to make money. I can bet you my kids won’t wind up on these programs, whereas the kids of those on welfare will most likely continue for generations.

im not heartless, but I’m also not brainless.

also, I lived with 4 kids on no income for several years...if you can manage to live on a couple thousand of free money, you have a spending problem, not an income problem. Not enough to live on indeed.
 

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The biggest barrier to people getting off these programs is the fear of losing what little benefits they get. I have seen it with my own eyes what happens to people. Loss aversion is a powerful thing. You tell people that they can earn an income without losing those benefits dollar for dollar, and that fear is greatly abated. And some people with disabilities can work part time, or perhaps from home. The current rules are not supportive of people with disabilities trying to earn an income to supplement their benefits. So instead people get trapped by their fear of losing what little they have. It is perverse.

You can bet that your kids won't end up on those programs because you can bail them out. What happens if dear son is sideswiped in an intersection and severely disabled both physically and mentally. Bank of dad will help pay for his care for the next 20-40 years, but not everyone is so fortunate.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,265 (Edited)
my kids won’t wind up like that or be bailed out because we went through something similar...they know what it takes to get out of that situation without handouts, plus they stated early making passive income for themselves in case something like that happens to them. If it does, my son still has his rental income and stock dividends paying him every month.
they were raised to solve problems on their own, they know they aren’t entitled to what I earned.
however I taught them what they needed to know to avoid the situation we were in.

My kids were raised to focus on solutions, not problems. It makes a big difference.
 

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We already have UBI in the form of the CCTB. Do alot of tax returns and see many families pulling in 30k per year doing absolutely nothing just from the CCTB
 

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Discussion Starter #1,268 (Edited)
So your son is going to manage a rental if he is mentally incompetent and in a wheelchair?
There is something called property managers. Who’d have thought? Yes it’ll cost money, but he’ll probably own several By the time he needs to worry about it, if ever. Ready for your next excuse.

stop focusing on the problems and start looking for solutions. Until you do, you’re just holding yourself back. If you only spent a quarter of the time you do coming up with solutions instead of reasons why you can’t do it, you’d probably be a 1%er.
 

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There is something called property managers. Who’d have thought? Yes it’ll cost money, but he’ll probably own several By the time he needs to worry about it, if ever. Ready for your next excuse.

stop focusing on the problems and start looking for solutions. Until you do, you’re just holding yourself back. If you only spent a quarter of the time you do coming up with solutions instead of reasons why you can’t do it, you’d probably be a 1%er.
You mean you would do it on his behalf as power of attorney.

Don't worry about me JAG. Hard to say exactly, but I am in top decile of income and net worth for my age.
 

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What you are arguing here is that there should not be disability, EI, welfare, CCB, GIS, OAS because anyone, even a person in a persistent vegetative state, could amass a real estate empire. The existence of these programs keeps people from helping themselves. Therefore they should not exist. Did I get that right?
 

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Discussion Starter #1,271
You mean you would do it on his behalf as power of attorney.

Don't worry about me JAG. Hard to say exactly, but I am in top decile of income and net worth for my age.
No, there are companies who manage properties out there, they care called property managers. Look it up if you don’t believe me.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,272 (Edited)
What you are arguing here is that there should not be disability, EI, welfare, CCB, GIS, OAS because anyone, even a person in a persistent vegetative state, could amass a real estate empire. The existence of these programs keeps people from helping themselves. Therefore they should not exist. Did I get that right?
Once again, you’re trying really hard to twist what I said...if only you could put that mind to work on something productive.

i said I believe in social programs, short term and if we can afford it, not long term handouts. I also said, my son started early amassing a passive income portfolio so he probably will never be a burden on society even if the worst happens. He makes enough now to support himself while in school, how much more would he need? What did you do at 18 to ensure your future needs would be covered?

I didn’t say what you implied I did any more than you said we should all contribute more money to keep you in a better lifestyle just because you were born and got hurt. Maybe we needed to buy you a Porsche and mansion to keep you happy along with all the other poor people out there. Correct?

keep trying to twist what I say to make yourself feel better as you collect free money from the government and complain it’s not enough for you.

top domicile for people your age, wow. Considering most people can’t afford an unexpected $2000 expense in Canada, you’ve made quite the achievement congrats, how much of that money is government funds? You and sags should be neighbours...
 

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Once again, you’re trying really hard to twist what I said...if only you could put that mind to work on something productive.

i said I believe in social programs, short term and if we can afford it, not long term handouts. I also said, my son started early amassing a passive income portfolio so he probably will never be a burden on society even if the worst happens. He makes enough now to support himself while in school, how much more would he need? What did you do at 18 to ensure your future needs would be covered?

keep trying to twist what I say to make yourself feel better as you collect free money from the government and complain it’s not enough for you.

top domicile for people your age, wow. Considering most people can’t afford an unexpected $2000 expense in Canada, you’ve made quite the achievement congrats, how much of that money is government funds? You and sags should be neighbours...
Welfare, disability, GIS, etc. are not temporary (except in the sense that humans are temporary). They are long term handouts. Therefore you do not support them?

The last government money I received was some small scholarships for university quite a few years ago and GST rebates when I had low income. You are making wild assumptions about me and have no idea. My point is that I am not arguing out of self interest (unlike sags, who seems primarily interested in how to get more public money in his pocket). I am in the top decile of income for any age (into 6 figures). I have 2 years of living expenses in liquid assets. I find it very hard to relate to people who are a paycheque away from defaulting on their obligations. I am also ineligible for CERB and all the other government stimulus initiatives currently. I expect you have probably gotten a lot more handouts from the government for you and your family than I have.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,275 (Edited)
Welfare, disability, GIS, etc. are not temporary (except in the sense that humans are temporary). They are long term handouts. Therefore you do not support them?

The last government money I received was some small scholarships for university quite a few years ago and GST rebates when I had low income. You are making wild assumptions about me and have no idea. My point is that I am not arguing out of self interest (unlike sags, who seems primarily interested in how to get more public money in his pocket). I am in the top decile of income for any age (into 6 figures). I have 2 years of living expenses in liquid assets. I find it very hard to relate to people who are a paycheque away from defaulting on their obligations. I am also ineligible for CERB and all the other government stimulus initiatives currently. I expect you have probably gotten a lot more handouts from the government for you and your family than I have.
Your right, I don’t support them. I don’t qualify for government handouts and never have, even when injured and disabled. I believe people are capable of taking care of themselves and I know people in probably every situation who do, even people with severe mental disabilities. The people on free money Rarely change their situations, so they are addicted to the free money. As you said, they are more afraid of losing the easy cash than making more And therefore having more. What’s worse it it become multi generational. Will you allow your kids to live in your basement forever and pay all their bills forever or do you think they need to stand on their own feet at some point? Government funding is no different, except it’s my money not necessarily yours.

you seem to think we should ensure everyone on the planet gets a nice house in a great neighborhood, eating steak everyday, yet i bet you don’t want to pay more in taxes why not donate all that spare cash to the poor instead of asking the government to take it away from me to pay for your ideals? I’d be willing to bet you don’t even know where the homeless shelters are in your city. Let alone what they endure or don‘t other than in your imagination. Nor how they exploit the system to get thousands of dollars for nothing every month. There is an extremely high burnout rate for caseworkers because they can’t stand the system and the money wasted. Some of their clients take in more than the caseworkers each month to sit around doing drugs and complaining...

ive got a buddy who rents to the homeless all the time. The government pays all their rent, utilities and guarantees the condition of the places...he still has to evict more than half of his tenants for various reasons. the last ones he had cost the government $14k in damages to his place. Not money well spent from what I see. He’s not a slum lord either, he fixes his places up nice, and they are in good areas, usually why the evictions are ordered. Because the people cause problems and the building demands it.
 

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It seems you can't wrap your head around the idea that not clawing back at 100% does a lot to eliminate that fear of losing benefits by earning an income and the multigenerational poverty. From the tests that have been done, UBI has generally not been associated with the calamity you predict. You want everyone to take your word for it that it would be a disaster. I think this thread started (or a previous one) on the subject of the pilot in Ontario. I don't see why people should be afraid of empirical data that demonstrates the effects of the policy. If it is a disaster, it will be borne out in the data. If the test is not rigorous enough, we should run one that is better constructed. But arguing that the idea shouldn't be studied isn't very rational.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,278 (Edited)
They didn’t have gat rebates when I was injured it only was implemented about 15 years ago. Never saw a baby bonus either.

im not predicting any disasters I’m saying we can’t afford it no matter how much you want it. We can’t balance the budget without ubi, but, by some miracle you seem to believe the more we spend the more money will be avaliable for handouts. For what it’s worth, I’m still considered disabled by definition with chronic pin and depressio on top of it, yet somehow keep adding to my net worth...
you also seem to dismiss my experience with the poor, unlike your expertise which relies on second hand informa at best interpreted by people who want ubi implemented. No bias there. They found people given extra money are happier and more financially secure than people who weren’t given extra money. What a surprise. Probably got a government grant to prove the obvious. Wish I could get paid large sums for similar “work”.
you seem to need someone to take care of you despite your six figure salary. I don’t. I’m a grown up who can take care of myself, within my own means and budget.Unlike the government. Money and age obviously don’t lead to being grown up and responsible.
 

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They also found that very few people left the labour market. Mostly mothers with children and students. They also found fewer hospitalizations and improved heatlh.

I'm not looking for anyone to look after me. I wouldn't/don't benefit from UBI--indeed, I am paying for it. It seems you can't fathom that someone would want others not to be stuck in the welfare trap. I have told you countless times, and you seem incapable of grasping it. You can only empathize with yourself.
 

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Oh oh....we are poor ?

Who knew ? And here I thought our "net" income of $85,000 a year was pretty darn good.

Guess we should have bought a bunch of $30,000 condos, financed them for $40,000 each and then rented them out for $2,000 a month.

We could be real estate tycoons today. Opportunities forever lost.

I must have missed the......."how to get rich and influence people"......section of the book.......LOL.
 
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