[andrewf]

Many disagree.
They should only be granted immunity if it is in the public interest for them to have it.

I think you're only okay with them having both immunity and the ability to censor viewpoints they disagree with is because you generally align with their views. If you disagreed with them, you'd likely think differently.
The political bias in these companies and their policies is very well documented.

You really don't want a completely unregulated wild west that we would see if they could not moderate their platforms. It may also require identities to be verified (and reduction in privacy) to address civil damages (defamation, etc.). If we removed the safe harbour, these platforms would just shut down commenting as the liability is unacceptable.

 

[MrMatt]

You really don't want a completely unregulated wild west that we would see if they could not moderate their platforms. It may also require identities to be verified (and reduction in privacy) to address civil damages (defamation, etc.). If we removed the safe harbour, these platforms would just shut down commenting as the liability is unacceptable.

No I don't.
I'd just like the regulation or moderation to be fair and not politically motivated.

If they're going to play the "I can do what I want on my platform" game, then remove safe harbour.

 

[MrMatt]

This has nothing to do with who is in power. The laws have been consistent on the current matter.

People who carry out terrorist attacks against the country, especially to directly attack the government, need to face criminal consequences. It's just mind boggling to me how many Americans (and even some Canadians) can't comprehend this basic aspect of law & order.

• someone who commits murders, must be caught and tried for murder, and face punishment
• someone who steals money, must be caught and tried for theft, and face punishment

And similarly

• someone (or groups) who violently attack the government, must be caught and tried for crimes against the state
• someone who incites violence or organizes those groups (also a crime) must be caught and tried for crimes against the state

Currently, there is a clear group of MAGA supporters and militia members who appear to be guilty of crimes. They obviously have to face those consequences. These are countries of law and order right?

@Rusty O'Toole you understand these people broke the law - right? They committed some very serious offences. Actually, horrendous offences against the country.

Absolutely agree with all of that.

I was calling for the same thing all summer.

They also have to act against Antifa, Boogaloo, BLM affiliated agitators, and any other group that uses violence.
That's not to detract from anyone else who also committed crimes.

 

[james4beach]

I was calling for the same thing all summer.

Let's just be clear though, the pro black rights activists were not trying to overthrow the elected government, not trying to interfere in the elections, and not committing violent attacks on sitting parliaments to stop the democratic process.

Those summer protesters also didn't try hunting down the Vice President (second highest office) to murder him, didn't plant bombs at political offices, were not organizing a government overthrow.

I know you like the equivalences to keep poking at your own political 'enemies' but these are very different things. What is currently happening among the far right is a unique crime and threat, a violent insurrection / terrorism against the state.

Perhaps more importantly it's a direct assault on the INSTITUTION of the USA (and all western countries) by attempting to overthrow the democratic process. This is violence in direct reaction to a fair, constitutional democratic election. It is a very unique and horrendous crime against western countries.

Protesters for black lives did nothing of this sort, obviously. Only the far right extremists are doing this.

 

[MrMatt]

Let's just be clear though, the pro black rights activists were not trying to overthrow the elected government, not trying to interfere in the elections, and not committing violent attacks on sitting parliaments to prevent the operation of government.

What is currently happening among the far right is a unique crime and threat, the insurrection attempt and terrorism against the state.

Actually CHOP/CHAZ was an attempt to prevent the lawful authority of the elected government, and attacking a courthouse or police station is also an assault on democratic institutions.

I think that it is happening at the Federal level is a novel aspect, but it just the logical extrapolation of increasingly violent acts that have been taking place all summer.
Don't forget armed terrorists were attempting to attack the Michigan governor.

The problem is the increase in violence as opposed to peaceful debate.

 

[james4beach]

I think that it is happening at the Federal level is a novel aspect, but it just the logical extrapolation of increasingly violent acts that have been taking place all summer.
Don't forget armed terrorists were attempting to attack the Michigan governor.

The problem is the increase in violence as opposed to peaceful debate.

Glad you raised the Michigan governor. Yes, that attack was a sign of things to come. The terrorists attempted to take the governor as hostage, maybe to kill her.

Next step up, they attacked the Capitol and tried to overthrow a sitting government.

Remember that also during the summer, a right wing extremist carried out an armed assault on the Prime Minister's residence, likely an assassination attempt. These are all related.

I think Fox News and the radical/angry media outlets (Infowars, Gateway Pundit, Rebel News in Canada) deserve a lot of the blame for this. They have been fuelling anger, outrage and extreme interpretation of the world for many years now. The result is a new radical movement (some mix of MAGA and Qanon) which intends to use violence for their political and ideological purposes.

 

[Retiredguy]

The lesson to me is how easily people are manipulated and for all intents and purposes, driven mad or delusional.

I think you'd get lots of support for that statement, but possibly not in thinking about the same people you have in mind.

 

[MrMatt]

Glad you raised the Michigan governor. Yes, that attack was a sign of things to come. The terrorists attempted to take the governor as hostage, maybe to kill her.

Next step up, they attacked the Capitol and tried to overthrow a sitting government.

Remember that also during the summer, a right wing extremist carried out an armed assault on the Prime Minister's residence, likely an assassination attempt. These are all related.

I think Fox News and the radical/angry media outlets (Infowars, Gateway Pundit, Rebel News in Canada) deserve a lot of the blame for this. They have been fuelling anger, outrage and extreme interpretation of the world for many years now. The result is a new radical movement (some mix of MAGA and Qanon) which intends to use violence for their political and ideological purposes.

Other outlets are also pushing their messages to inflame as well.

How do you explain the BLM riots, except outrage? Who was fueling it?

There has been a dramatic escalation across the board, and it's not good.

We need more people to denounce ALL VIOLENCE.

 

[Rusty O'Toole]

Let me guess. You also believed Obama was going to round people up and put them in FEMA camps. Maybe try hyperventilating a bit less.

Bernie Sanders never said anything about putting people in concentration camps. You claim supports of him said so. I've not seen it, and doubt it came from anyone credible.

This is from Youtube. I can no longer find the full Project Veritas video, it seems to have disappeared some time in the last 11 months, this extract will have to do. There are others of Sanders campaign staff making similar statements or worse.

 

[james4beach]

This is from Youtube. I can no longer find the full Project Veritas video, it seems to have disappeared some time in the last 11 months, this extract will have to do. There are others of Sanders campaign staff making similar statements or worse.

It's true, Germany did require a massive campaign to re-educate the population to stamp out fascist thinking and tendencies, to the extent it was possible. This is a reason Germany still has extremely strict laws today against Nazi propaganda, holocaust denial etc.

I don't know the context of that whole video (it's easy to take things out of context) but the radicalization of MAGA/Qanon people we see today is a very serious concern for society. Of course not all of them are crazy, but a decent number of them are truly detached from reality and are well into "extremist" territory.

Enough of them are extremists that they are actively organizing and carrying out terrorist attacks, for example. At this point some MAGA people are now also threatening and trying to kill Republicans, the very people who they previously loved. They've gone crazy.

It is a legitimate concern for the US: how will that extremism be alleviated? They are going to struggle with this for a very long time.

 

[james4beach]

@Rusty O'Toole and @MrMatt , let me give you the example of an American man I know, someone who was a friend and colleague, who was radicalized by MAGA/Qanon. Why don't you tell me what society should do with this man.

We worked together for years, in fact he sat at the desk next to me. Nice guy, a smart guy. We went for drinks, talked about our dating experiences. Even back then he was a bit weird, very obsessed with 9/11 conspiracy theories and conspiracy web sites.

I didn't hear much from him over the last 3 years (the Trump years). I started sending him text messages near the election, and I was getting back very crazy responses. He was writing that democrats are child molesters and sent long, rambling text messages about democrat agents who would go around molesting children in China. Virtually every text message I got from him was about pedophilia. I stopped responding. Then he texted me that he's going to "do something to stop the evil forces" (something to that effect).

I debated whether I should report him to the police or FBI since that's the kind of thing lunatics say before carrying out attacks. But since he's my friend, I gave him the benefit of the doubt and didn't tell anyone. I hope that my inaction isn't going to result in people being harmed.

I did show the text to a friend of mine, who remarked, "he's lost his mind. This guy needs help."

This man will never be able to get a job ever again. When he shows up in a workplace and starts talking like that, everyone is going to see he's a nut, and step away from him. He will ONLY find company among other people with his extreme MAGA/Qanon views. He will consume all their media, hang out in their discussion groups. This is very similar to how people enter religious cults or extremist groups in general.

So what does society do about him, and millions of other men like him in America? Do we leave them alone, so they can indulge in their increasingly crazy fantasies? They are trying to murder people.

 

[MrMatt]

It is a legitimate concern for the US: how will that extremism be alleviated? They are going to struggle with this for a very long time.

They have to start having honest conversations.
They also have to acknowledge that the problem is the perceived unfairness, which is fanned by all sides.
Too many legitimate concerns are simply swept away, so they people feel they're out of better options, it's really about the disenfranchisement.

Do you really think that people would storm government buildings, or riot in the streets if they felt that there were other options?

 

[MrMatt]

I did show the text to a friend of mine, who remarked, "he's lost his mind. This guy needs help."

Get him help?
This is where deradicalization comes in.

People do this, maybe listen to Daryl Davis?

The problem is that there are people who are trying to discuss this exact problem, and how to address it.
Then protestors shut them down, (NJ 2019) because they don't want "white supremacists" to have a platform.

That's the problem, people with power don't want to solve the problem.
They want to fight and blame and quite honestly they benefit from it.

 

[Retiredguy]

This thread and others like it have been very enlightening to me. If Trump fans amounted to only 1% of the population, and Americans owned no guns, Now I understand how things got out of hand in Nazi Germany, Kmer Rouge Cambodia, Communist Russia and China, and similar places. what is there to stop Pelosi and the Democrats from rounding them up, putting them in concentration camps and exterminating them?
5 years ago there was no such thing as a Trump fan. Today there are millions who would cheerfully exterminate them all because of politics and media hysteria, most of it based on fantasies, falsehoods and baseless accusations

In June when I saw Trump, Barr, Esper, and Milly - in battle fatigues, order that unarmed peaceful protesters standing properly behind the earlier placed gov't barricade's, get set upon in a planned gov't attack because the President wanted a photo op I too understand how things got out of control in those countries you cite. In fact I thought it had to be Russia or China I was watching! (Tiananmen Square came to mind) I agree, what is there to stop Trump and the Republicans from rounding them up, putting them in concentration camps and exterminating them? And you're concerned about some low level Democratic Staffer speaking stupidly. (I haven't seen the video just the title).

All of the people who attended the Capital on Jan 6th did so for only one reason, they're totally sucked in by Trump's lies. Think of it, chanting hang Pence, because he, Trumps biggest supporter for 4 years, had the audacity to defy Trump and declare that he was going to obey the law and constitution, and Trump then publiclly stated I won't like him if he does (dog whistle). Trump previously said if I shoot someone on 5th Ave., they will still love me... Just think if they had gotten to Pence. Do really think Trump would care or even admonish them. No he would call them all great patriots for hanging the vice president of the United States of American. Then it would be Kim Jong Trump.

 

[Mechanic]

I wish there were as much concern for Canadian politics as this is for the US. Our way of life is in a spiral.

 

[MrMatt]

All of the people who attended the Capital on Jan 6th did so for only one reason, they're totally sucked in by Trump's lies.

And the BLM rioters were sucked in by different lies all summer.

We have to start the dialog to overcome the lies.

It's the SAME PROBLEM affecting extremists all around, and it's the same solution. We even know the solution.

 

[james4beach]

I wish there were as much concern for Canadian politics as this is for the US. Our way of life is in a spiral.

Yes, I am quite concerned about growing radicalism among the Canadian far right. They have already attempted political assassination, but everyone is just kind of ignoring it.

We have extremist cells within the ranks of our military, and we've got growing extremism within the community. I suspect that they are far more active than in previous years. The American/MAGA propaganda continues to radicalize more and more Canadians.

The far-right in Canada is growing more active and the extremists among them threaten our way of life. I believe that Canadian police and intelligence are not taking it seriously enough, shown for example by how the RCMP recently let a neonazi (in Manitoba) easily slip through their fingers and flee the country.

 

[MrMatt]

Yes, I am quite concerned about growing radicalism among the Canadian far right. They have already attempted political assassination, but everyone is just kind of ignoring it.

We have extremist cells within the ranks of our military, and we've got growing extremism within the community. I suspect that they are far more active than in previous years. The American/MAGA propaganda continues to radicalize more and more Canadians.

The far-right in Canada is growing more active and the extremists among them threaten our way of life. I believe that Canadian police and intelligence are not taking it seriously enough, shown for example by how the RCMP recently let a neonazi (in Manitoba) easily slip through their fingers and flee the country.

I'm more scared of the far left, as they actually have political power in Canada and the US.
In the US they've also cause far more damage and deaths than the far right.

 

[Tostig]

Yes, I am quite concerned about growing radicalism among the Canadian far right. They have already attempted political assassination, but everyone is just kind of ignoring it.

We have extremist cells within the ranks of our military, and we've got growing extremism within the community. I suspect that they are far more active than in previous years. The American/MAGA propaganda continues to radicalize more and more Canadians.

The far-right in Canada is growing more active and the extremists among them threaten our way of life. I believe that Canadian police and intelligence are not taking it seriously enough, shown for example by how the RCMP recently let a neonazi (in Manitoba) easily slip through their fingers and flee the country.

On a radio interview long ago, Deborah Grey, the once lone MP from the Reform Party, described how the Left "abhors us" and "thinks we're all stupid". Those were her words (or as close as I can remember).

Is there anybody left still wondering why?

 

[james4beach]

I'm more scared of the far left, as they actually have political power in Canada and the US.
In the US they've also cause far more damage and deaths than the far right.

What a strange fear to have, considering that Trump was just in office for 4 years and practically destroyed the US government structure, and then tried to overthrow it while leaving.

You're lying. The far left has not caused more damage and deaths than the far right.

But hey don't let me stop you from your ongoing propaganda effort ... please tell us. What is the scary far left plotting next. Are they gonna take away my freedums?