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Are you suggesting that its okay that shopify becomes the new dark web of sales stores? Or would you rather shopify makes sure that the fraud is eliminated. If they are selling you fraudulent goods, more than likely they are stealing other things as well.
Nothing like that at all.
It's silly to think that shopify is "dark web"

I'm simply stating that while it is a concern that there is fraud on the internet, calling out shopify makes little sense at all.
They never touch the actual product, they have no ability to know if it is legitimate or not.

Would you hold woocommerce liable for fraud committed using their software?
What about the Linux foundation? They build the OS, maybe it's their fault too.

Back to my question, would you hold Cadillac responsible for supporting drug dealers?
 

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Nothing like that at all.
It's silly to think that shopify is "dark web"

I'm simply stating that while it is a concern that there is fraud on the internet, calling out shopify makes little sense at all.
They never touch the actual product, they have no ability to know if it is legitimate or not.

Would you hold woocommerce liable for fraud committed using their software?
What about the Linux foundation? They build the OS, maybe it's their fault too.

Back to my question, would you hold Cadillac responsible for supporting drug dealers?
No, but I would hold Cadillac responsible if they had filled their car with fraudulent parts.......
 

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No, but I would hold Cadillac responsible if they had filled their car with fraudulent parts.......
Do you hold Amazon responsible for fraudulent parts? Because it's full of it.
Amazon and Shopify are similar in some respects. Amazon you are using their brand to drive sales, and Shopify you are using your brand. AMZN and SHOP just collect the money, take a cut, and give you your share. Amazon also adds on fulfilment and shipping.
 

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Do you hold Amazon responsible for fraudulent parts? Because it's full of it.
Amazon and Shopify are similar in some respects. Amazon you are using their brand to drive sales, and Shopify you are using your brand. AMZN and SHOP just collect the money, take a cut, and give you your share. Amazon also adds on fulfilment and shipping.
Yes. I hold them responsible for fraudulent parts.
 

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Do you hold Amazon responsible for fraudulent parts? Because it's full of it.
Amazon and Shopify are similar in some respects. Amazon you are using their brand to drive sales, and Shopify you are using your brand. AMZN and SHOP just collect the money, take a cut, and give you your share. Amazon also adds on fulfilment and shipping.
Amazon often stocks the parts in their warehouse and ships them out.

I think holding Shopify liable for fraud is like holding any of the following facilitators liable.
Your ISP
Your CC company
The shipper( UPS/CanadaPost etc)
The person who made the box it came in.
The company that made the computers, and label printers.


All Shopify does is run a piece of software for you


It's like blaming the bank because you made a dumb purchase.
 

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Federal Competition Act
Under the federal Competition Act, it is against the law to make any false or misleading representation to the public for the purpose of promoting a business interest, particularly if it is done deliberately or recklessly. This Act applies to advertising cases in both civil and criminal courts. If it’s not deliberate or reckless, the federal government may simply tell the business to “cease and desist,” pay a fine and publish information notices to the public telling of its errors.

The federal Competition Bureau is the independent law enforcement agency that administers the Competition Act. The Bureau protects consumers by promoting truth in advertising, discouraging deceptive business practices, and investigating anti-competitive activities.

If a consumer believes that an individual or company has contravened the Competition Act, they can make a complaint to the Competition Bureau which may investigate. For more information, visit competitionbureau.gc.ca.

From Dishonest businesses and misleading advertising - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line.
 

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Federal Competition Act
Under the federal Competition Act, it is against the law to make any false or misleading representation to the public for the purpose of promoting a business interest, particularly if it is done deliberately or recklessly. This Act applies to advertising cases in both civil and criminal courts. If it’s not deliberate or reckless, the federal government may simply tell the business to “cease and desist,” pay a fine and publish information notices to the public telling of its errors.

The federal Competition Bureau is the independent law enforcement agency that administers the Competition Act. The Bureau protects consumers by promoting truth in advertising, discouraging deceptive business practices, and investigating anti-competitive activities.

If a consumer believes that an individual or company has contravened the Competition Act, they can make a complaint to the Competition Bureau which may investigate. For more information, visit competitionbureau.gc.ca.

From Dishonest businesses and misleading advertising - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line.
However Shopify doesn't engage in false of misleading representations.

They're actually very transparent on their fees and services.

 

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However Shopify doesn't engage in false of misleading representations.

They're actually very transparent on their fees and services.

But if they are knowingly allowing fraud to occur on their platform, they bare the weight of culpable negligence. They have a responsibility to the people who use their platform, and if they know about it, they need to have it eradicated. Full Stop.
 

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But if they are knowingly allowing fraud to occur on their platform, they bare the weight of culpable negligence. They have a responsibility to the people who use their platform, and if they know about it, they need to have it eradicated. Full Stop.
They have to know about it.
Unless they are reviewing the listings they're no more liable than your ISP.

They don't supervise their customers accounts, they don't even touch the products being sold.
Even if you allege fraud, they have no way to confirm it.
Therefore they can't be "knowingly allowing fraud", because they don't know.
 

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They have to know about it.
Unless they are reviewing the listings they're no more liable than your ISP.

They don't supervise their customers accounts, they don't even touch the products being sold.
Even if you allege fraud, they have no way to confirm it.
Therefore they can't be "knowingly allowing fraud", because they don't know.
If the news media knows about it, Shopify does as well. It's time they pull up their Big Girl pants and protect the client base. The last thing they need is to be implicated in cover-ups. They need to get their act together...
 

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If the news media knows about it, Shopify does as well. It's time they pull up their Big Girl pants and protect the client base. The last thing they need is to be implicated in cover-ups. They need to get their act together...
?? The people being defrauded aren't shopify clients or customers.

Cadillac & Lexus knows their products are used to move drugs.. time they stepped up to protect the general public.
 

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?? The people being defrauded aren't shopify clients or customers.

Cadillac & Lexus knows their products are used to move drugs.. time they stepped up to protect the general public.
The difference is that Shopify knows the clients (shop owners) because they are all being registered and need to pay for the software and service that shopify provides. And now shopify has knowledge that these shop owners are engaged in Fraud. They are walking a dangerous razor if they don't take steps to stop the fraud....no different than selling a knife to someone you know who is going to immediately use it on your friend standing beside you.
 

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The difference is that Shopify knows the clients (shop owners) because they are all being registered and need to pay for the software and service that shopify provides. And now shopify has knowledge that these shop owners are engaged in Fraud. They are walking a dangerous razor if they don't take steps to stop the fraud....no different than selling a knife to someone you know who is going to immediately use it on your friend standing beside you.
If they know that the person is going to commit a crime, sure.
But if they don't know, and don't have any reason to suspect, they have no responsibility to do something.


Should your ISP block your internet access because they think you might be using your internet connection to commit a crime?
Remember, Shopify doesn't see the products being sold, they don't know if fraud is occuring or not.


The problem is you want Shopify to block their customers, based on what? Accusations of fraud?

If shopify starts blocking and shutting down the businesses of innocent customers, that would be disasterous.
1. Bad for the companies. They're shut down.
2. Bad for Shopify. Why would you want to be a shopify customer?

Quite honestly if I was a merchant, I don't care what other customers are using the same software.
I do care about the quality of the service, and if the vendor is going to arbitrarily shut down my business


I think what I'm struggling with is
1. Why do you think Shopify must police customer behaviour, but you don't seem to hold anyone else to this standard.
2. How do you think Shopify CAN police customer behaviour? What steps could they do? Is there a possible process that is reasonable to cost effectively audit them and determine if fraud is taking place? Or will it be like paypal where they automatically rule against the seller in most cases?
 

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If they know that the person is going to commit a crime, sure.
But if they don't know, and don't have any reason to suspect, they have no responsibility to do something.

Should your ISP block your internet access because they think you might be using your internet connection to commit a crime?
Yes. It may save themselves a big headache, ethically and legally.

Most people realize that cyber crime laws across the world are implemented unevenly. That said, there is rough agreement across the western world that there is responsibilities required by the ISP with respects to Crime. They fall under two general buckets Traditional Crime and Cyber Crimes.

Traditional Crimes (robberies, murders, abductions etc) the ISP has no choice. They will need to provide any evidence required by a presented subpoena. This could be historical data or in real-time such as monitoring broadband sessions activity. Have you tracked anyone through cell towers lately?

Cyber crimes are the real headache and are dependant on jurisdiction. And yes there is no single definition of cyber-crime but most governments generally regard any crime committed using a computer and the Internet to steal a person's identity or sell contraband or stalk victims or disrupt operations with malevolent programs as crime. Some examples (1) So cyber attack crimes like a DDoS attack is considered “computer trespassing” (hacking) may be prosecuted as a felony. (2) cyber fraud when it targets computer users (as opposed to the computers) such as phishing, trade secrets, contraband, even national security secrets may be prosecuted (just imagine violating the ITAR regulation in the US? Gee..don't we have someone locked up in Vancouver?) (3) Illegal on-line content (Child porn) must be reported....

I trust I've made my case with respects to ISPs

Remember, Shopify doesn't see the products being sold, they don't know if fraud is occuring or not.
The problem is you want Shopify to block their customers, based on what? Accusations of fraud?

If shopify starts blocking and shutting down the businesses of innocent customers, that would be disasterous.
1. Bad for the companies. They're shut down.
2. Bad for Shopify. Why would you want to be a shopify customer?
Ignorance is no excuse for violating laws. That said, Shopify has grown to the point it is now working on the world stage and like I said previously they need to pull up their Big Girl Pants. They cannot think of themselves as a simple startup of 6 working out of the Market in Ottawa anymore. They need to take the real steps of providing a platform that meets all the global security requirements, laws and regulations. It means hiring a bucketfuls of security professionals with global experience and twice as many lawyers.

Quite honestly if I was a merchant, I don't care what other customers are using the same software.
I do care about the quality of the service, and if the vendor is going to arbitrarily shut down my business

I think what I'm struggling with is
1. Why do you think Shopify must police customer behaviour, but you don't seem to hold anyone else to this standard.
2. How do you think Shopify CAN police customer behaviour? What steps could they do? Is there a possible process that is reasonable to cost effectively audit them and determine if fraud is taking place? Or will it be like paypal where they automatically rule against the seller in most cases?
So something that you may not understand is that software whether its from Microsoft, Oracle, or Shopify is a licence to use, it is not a product that you own like a car. And as a licence, it has scope and limits of use, local laws apply and responsibilities to enforce--- both as a consumer or provider. This leads to some interesting problems like the one we are talking about here. In any case, Shopify by implementing a software license agreement has the responsibility to monitor the use of its own software. That is the field they decided to play in. So they need to get cracking.

Now if your thinking that this can only happen in software your mistaken it could happen in the automobile industry as well. Think self driving cars. Or look at the problem John Deere caused with framers, when JD claimed farmers don't own their tractors.


MrMatt---Your not in Kansas anymore.
 

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Yes. It may save themselves a big headache, ethically and legally.

Most people realize that cyber crime laws across the world are implemented unevenly. That said, there is rough agreement across the western world that there is responsibilities required by the ISP with respects to Crime. They fall under two general buckets Traditional Crime and Cyber Crimes.

Traditional Crimes (robberies, murders, abductions etc) the ISP has no choice. They will need to provide any evidence required by a presented subpoena. This could be historical data or in real-time such as monitoring broadband sessions activity. Have you tracked anyone through cell towers lately?

Cyber crimes are the real headache and are dependant on jurisdiction. And yes there is no single definition of cyber-crime but most governments generally regard any crime committed using a computer and the Internet to steal a person's identity or sell contraband or stalk victims or disrupt operations with malevolent programs as crime. Some examples (1) So cyber attack crimes like a DDoS attack is considered “computer trespassing” (hacking) may be prosecuted as a felony. (2) cyber fraud when it targets computer users (as opposed to the computers) such as phishing, trade secrets, contraband, even national security secrets may be prosecuted (just imagine violating the ITAR regulation in the US? Gee..don't we have someone locked up in Vancouver?) (3) Illegal on-line content (Child porn) must be reported....

I trust I've made my case with respects to ISPs
Not really. If they're aware of crime, they should take action.
If law enforcement requests information they should take action.

They do not currently audit customer usage to determine if it is legal.

In fact the telecommunications industry is highly regulated, and I don't believe they can monitor communication without warrants.

Ignorance is no excuse for violating laws. That said, Shopify has grown to the point it is now working on the world stage and like I said previously they need to pull up their Big Girl Pants. They cannot think of themselves as a simple startup of 6 working out of the Market in Ottawa anymore. They need to take the real steps of providing a platform that meets all the global security requirements, laws and regulations. It means hiring a bucketfuls of security professionals with global experience and twice as many lawyers.
Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Ignorance of a crime you are not even committing is.

I haven't heard of any security problems at Shopify, I think you're confusing issues.


So something that you may not understand is that software whether its from Microsoft, Oracle, or Shopify is a licence to use, it is not a product that you own like a car. And as a licence, it has scope and limits of use, local laws apply and responsibilities to enforce--- both as a consumer or provider. This leads to some interesting problems like the one we are talking about here. In any case, Shopify by implementing a software license agreement has the responsibility to monitor the use of its own software. That is the field they decided to play in. So they need to get cracking.
The license is the terms under which you are allowed to make copies.
Most software has no restrictions on use.

I again ask, is the OS vendor responsible for the fraudulent acts of Shopify customers?
Why or why not?

Now if your thinking that this can only happen in software your mistaken it could happen in the automobile industry as well. Think self driving cars. Or look at the problem John Deere caused with framers, when JD claimed farmers don't own their tractors.


MrMatt---Your not in Kansas anymore.
Well self driving cars is an interesting one.
Currently in most jurisdictions you can't have a motor vehicle operate on the road without a licensed driver.
For self driving vehicles, it matters what rules they put in place.

I'm very aware of the games between selling and licensing


The short answer is that if you provide a product service.
Ie shopify or a taxi ride.
You are not in any way liable for your customers actions, unless you had knowledge of the acts they were undertaking.

If shopify is aware of a customer who is committing crimes, they should act appropriately.
However there is a real concern about people making false accusations.
Look at the problem of review bombing. It would be worse if a single disgruntled customer, or unethical competitor can shut down your whole business.

your quip about Kansas makes no sense. I'm still in the real world, not in some imaginary experience.
 

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The "we are only providing a platform and aren't responsible for the content" excuse didn't stop the US government from putting Ross Ulbricht in prison for life.

He was the operator of Silk Road, a website that "provided a platform" for vendors and customers transacting in both legal and illegal goods.
 

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your quip about Kansas makes no sense. I'm still in the real world, not in some imaginary experience.
MrMatt--This is my last comment on this thread. I'm not an amature when it comes to this topic and have plenty of scars to show for it. Believe what you want, I've given you a high level view so you can see past your current view. I have nothing to gain. I can tell you this is an uncomfortable and utterly dramatically changing space and my comments are warnings/opinions. You seem to believe nothing of significance has changed. World courts do not agree with you. @sags comment is absolutely correct and there are many more examples.
 

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MrMatt--This is my last comment on this thread. I'm not an amature when it comes to this topic and have plenty of scars to show for it. Believe what you want, I've given you a high level view so you can see past your current view. I have nothing to gain. I can tell you this is an uncomfortable and utterly dramatically changing space and my comments are warnings/opinions. You seem to believe nothing of significance has changed. World courts do not agree with you. @sags comment is absolutely correct and there are many more examples.
You never confirmed if you also think the OS vendors or others should be held liable for the actions on their platform.

Nor have you stated exactly what steps Shopify should be taking. Should they respond to complaints, randomly audit their customers?


I agree, legislation and courts are erratic and unpredictable. They don't seem to have much grasp on what's going on, or following through on fundamental principles of justice.

I can agree that if someone KNOWS that someone is committing a crime using a system they have control over, they should do something.
However if they're an innocent third party, with no knowledge of the actions, they should have no responsibility.
Shopify isn't like Amazon where Amazon has physical possession of the products in question.
 

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The already high-valued SHOP just got a push from Facebook and Instagram.


A few months ago, I was expecting to buy SHOP at around $1,050. SHOP did drop around $1,150, but not below $1,100. Now I guess it won't ever reach that low.
 

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It's good that Canada is developing a tech mini-Titan (unless you're over 1T market cap you're not really a titan I guess). Lots of Canadians getting rich off SHOP will hopefully get bootstrap many more startups without having to flee to Silicon Valley for funding.
 
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