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Maybe instead of asking them to once again just be Canadian aka assimilate, maybe think why would Indigenous people not want to identify as Canadians. Perhaps, they see colonizers took over their land, killed their way of life, and took and killed their children among of a few of the things. Yet, we asked them to be Canadian. Would expect a Jew to hail Hitler, or see the Nazi's point of view?


Maybe stop looking at it as 'extra' rights, but the rights the Colonizers took from them, which was their right to live their way of life. None of us can change time, and have them live their life as if colonizers weren't hear. However, we can look past our privilege and recognize that we all benefitted from colonization at the expense of the Indigenous. How about stop asking the Indigenous to get over something that was as recent at 1997 and take our responsibility in helping the healing and reconciliation. How about recognizing that as Canadians we have done very little to reconcile what happened. We need to stop asking Indigenous people to do things we think are right, but ask them what they want, and help them even if it's uncomfortable.

Provided extra supports to those that we ripped apart is not racism, it's trying to help break the cycle of systemic racism.
Anytime one group of people is favoured against another, it is racism.

I have no doubt asking them to become Canadian and give up their culture will be met with resistance but until all Canadians are treated equally there will always be problems.

As for rewarding a group of people because their ancestors many generations ago had something taken is just ridiculous. As for these descendants. They were born here and they are not going anywhere else. I was born here and I am not going anywhere else and I imagine you and your children were born here and I doubt you are going to leave and give them back what was taken. Sooooo, we need to figure out how to bring the two groups together. keeping separate statuses and rights and privileges is not a very good solution for any of the groups that are not going anywhere. You see what I mean.

As for residential schools. Sure, let's find out what happened to all those people that are not with us anymore. Knowing history is useful. But let's not let it overwhelm our common sense. The aboriginal way of life is dead. Trying to keep it alive will just create more hardship, mostly for them. Let's open a museum to remember it, like we do with all dead cultures, and then get on with the way life is.
 

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My wife attended a one room school in rural Saskatchewan in the 1950s..

There are no mass graves in that school yard, despite children being exposed to the same health dangers as the native children.
...
Was that school a residential school, far from home? If not, no need to bury anyone at school.

Also, your resort to the florid, inflammatory term ‘mass grave’ implies ‘they all died at once’…..thus the leap to genocide.

Someone else (with whom I agree) recently commented:

The whole 1st Nations debate is a never ending blame session.
If Canada had never been conquered by Europeans these 1st Nations would still be fighting, enslaving, killing and conquering each other.
As was their history over tens of thousands of years.
As for the “1st nations” moniker….even they conquered the land as occupiers hundreds of thousands of years ago.
The latest debate,/outrage/ apologies comes after the “discovery” of a long forgotten graveyard.
A graveyard that was lost to history.
Canada is full of “lost” graveyards with mass burials due to 500 years of wars, famines, plagues, etc.
I personally know of a graveyard ,literally on the east coast of Canada that is being washed away by the ocean. A few 150 year old headstones remain of people that are long forgotten…even by their families
Far be it for me to suggest that the politicians of this country would seize on a craven opportunity to pander for votes by standing up and “apologizing” for anonymous, long dead, forgotten children.
Crocodile tears come to mind.

A co worker was on Vancouver island yesterday and spent the night at a friends place.
The friend lives next to a Reserve.
While Canada and its taxpayers must apologize again and again and again for wrongs committed 100, 200 and 300 years ago and cancel our National Holiday along with handing out Billions in reparation payments…..
The 1st Nations people on Vancouver Island were obviously over their 3 weeks of “grief” for the Kamloops School graveyard discovery since………. the Fireworks for Indigenous Day were plentiful and loud.
On the bright side.
No churches were burnt.


Another writer commented:

In my brief stint as an Indian Agent (DIAND -1961) I had occasion to visit a number of Reservations throughout BC. I was amazed at the abundance of trashed boats/engines, chainsaws stuck in trees and GRAVES! i recall wandering along a West Coast beach and observing crypts with exposed bodies. So much for the sanctity of the dead! At least the bodies in Kamloops were buried.

Yet another wrote:

I think you provided a well reasoned explanation of the genocide label that is being perpetrated by some. My father was the principal of a residential school in northern Manitoba. Although in his later years he was very remorseful at the attempt at integration. He was the kindest and most humane person I have ever known and I am sure that in the 1940s and 50s the children under his care were treated with the utmost respect and consideration.
 

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Was that school a residential school, far from home? If not, no need to bury anyone at school.

What was the need to bury the kids in unmarked graves on the school grounds ?

Also, your resort to the florid, inflammatory term ‘mass grave’ implies ‘they all died at once’…..thus the leap to genocide.

No, mass graves means mass graves and implies nothing more than that.

Of course the presence of the mass graves do raise questions of why they are there ?

Why did the authorities decide to not send the remains back to their parents and communities for a proper burial ?

After all, they had no problem removing the children from their parents and communities to bring them to the school.
 

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Was that school a residential school, far from home? If not, no need to bury anyone at school.

What was the need to bury the kids in unmarked graves on the school grounds ?

Also, your resort to the florid, inflammatory term ‘mass grave’ implies ‘they all died at once’…..thus the leap to genocide.

No, mass graves means mass graves and implies nothing more than that.
The need was borne of practical considerations, such as cost and difficulty of shipping home the departed ones.

I would take 'mass grave' to mean all were piled in together in one grave at one time. Do you know that is how it was done? Or were there different sites? Is Vancouver's Mount Pleasant Cemetery (and many like it in cities across Canada) a mass grave? Not that it matters much. We all agree it was a mistake, but how far do we go today in our mea culpas?
 

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That is their choice to make.

Turn over all the records or everything you own will be seized and sold for reparations.

As noted by others, they should also fulfill the financial commitments they already made.

Sorry, but I have no intention of paying for the breach of responsiblity of a church.
Great idea
Sags, I demand you immediately turn over all the records or everything you own will be seized and sold for reparations.

Refusal to turn over the records is clearly an admission of guilt.
 

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The need was borne of practical considerations, such as cost and difficulty of shipping home the departed ones.

I would take 'mass grave' to mean all were piled in together in one grave at one time. Do you know that is how it was done? Or were there different sites? Is Vancouver's Mount Pleasant Cemetery (and many like it in cities across Canada) a mass grave? Not that it matters much. We all agree it was a mistake, but how far do we go today in our mea culpas?
There is no strict definition of the term "mass graves", but the UN defines it as a "location where 3 or more bodies are buried".

Others define it as multiple bodies in a single grave or pit.

I am not sure the definition matters a whole lot but if you prefer......".thousands of unmarked graves" is also used to describe the situation.

They didn't even have the decency to put up a cross or otherwise mark the graves as a graveyard, which I think reveals the character of those in charge.

Just dig a hole and throw them in......is not a practice I would want to defend, and I suspect neither does the Catholic church.
 

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Great idea
Sags, I demand you immediately turn over all the records or everything you own will be seized and sold for reparations.

Refusal to turn over the records is clearly an admission of guilt.
If the court orders the records be turned over, it could be viewed as criminal obstruction to refuse and punished accordingly.

Law enforcement can obtain all kinds of personal records if the need arises and a judge agrees with the request.

I think a competent prosecutor could make a strong argument that the church benefited from the proceeds of crime and seek a judgement and seizure of assets if it is discovered the children died from criminal neglect or other illegal activity, while those in charge were being paid to administer the schools.

Of course, that is why the government is demanding all the records. As Trudeau has said........they are prepared to go to court to get them.
 

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I wonder how many priests, nuns, teachers, or school administrators are also buried in those unmarked graves........due to monetary constraints.
 

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I wonder how many priests, nuns, teachers, or school administrators are also buried in those unmarked graves........due to monetary constraints.
Monks in western Ukraine have discovered the remains of about 190 people at a monastery once used by Soviet secret police.

Photos. The remains include about 70 children, some of them less than a year old.
From July 19 to July 21, while conducting more excavation work on the mass massacre site of civilians, which probably took place in the early years of the soviet regime, in 1919-1921, we managed to exhume the remains of 29 persons. Most of them are young children and women. The number of human remains found since the beginning of our excavation work comes to 173.

Between 1932 and 1933 Ukraine lost from 7 to 10 million people. Whole families were dying, villages were abandoned. Death was not perceived as an extraordinary phenomenon. Exhausted by a long starvation, the peasants had not the strength to bury the members of their families. The Soviet authorities, in order to conceal the extent of death and to prevent the spreading of infections, organized the picking up and burial of corpses of those killed by starvation. For this purpose, large burial pits were created in local cemeteries. Also, the corpses, found on the streets, were brought to the suburban of the cities to the gullies or other natural ditches. Often the bodies of the dead were buried in secret, at night, without coffins, with no traditional rituals. At the mass graves no memorial signs were installed.


who should Ukraine held accountable for this?
 

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There is no strict definition of the term "mass graves", but the UN defines it as a "location where 3 or more bodies are buried".

Others define it as multiple bodies in a single grave or pit.

I am not sure the definition matters a whole lot but if you prefer......".thousands of unmarked graves" is also used to describe the situation.

They didn't even have the decency to put up a cross or otherwise mark the graves as a graveyard, which I think reveals the character of those in charge.

Just dig a hole and throw them in......is not a practice I would want to defend, and I suspect neither does the Catholic church.
Actually, they were maybe ahead of their time. I think the day may be coming to an end when we can carry on creating cemeteries where every body gets a nice piece of real estate and a headstone. And I have visited countries where that was never the practice anyway. Not sure the FNs in Canada had that practice down though the centuries.

For myself, I would be okay with being tossed into a bit, or the ocean to feed the crabs. I am dead, so how much do I care? Do I want to be placed in a $20,000 coffin and driven to a cemetery in a fine hearse at the head of a procession of slow-moving vehicles? Not so much. Kinda' silly.
 

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If the court orders the records be turned over, it could be viewed as criminal obstruction to refuse and punished accordingly.

Law enforcement can obtain all kinds of personal records if the need arises and a judge agrees with the request.

I think a competent prosecutor could make a strong argument that the church benefited from the proceeds of crime and seek a judgement and seizure of assets if it is discovered the children died from criminal neglect or other illegal activity, while those in charge were being paid to administer the schools.

Of course, that is why the government is demanding all the records. As Trudeau has said........they are prepared to go to court to get them.
If they have the records they can be ordered to turn them over.
However if they don't have the records, they can't.
Just like you are refusing to turn over the records.

The thing is, that "the records" may or may not exist in the form that anyone is expecting.
The perpetrators are most likley long dead.
It isn't like they were murdering kids 20 years ago, these deaths are many decades or even a century ago.

There is nobody left to bring to justice. They're dead.
 

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As I said before, once you remove your emotions, the residential school issue is simply one of investigation and analysis and a report later. Done. Nothing else can be done that will help anyone. I feel bad for these people, as do we all, but throwing money at their decedents will not help those children.

As for what we do with 1st nations today. From what I have seen, the aboriginals who integrated into Canadian society, on average have prospered as well as any other average Canadian and the ones that are determined to remain on the reservation and hold onto their old way of life have not.

Knowing that, should we force them into Canadian society. I doubt that will go over well and I am not a big fan of forcing anyone to do anything, but continuing to fund a losing program (like reservation life) sounds pretty dumb to me. Either the 1st nations live on their reservations and look after themselves 100%, without any Cdn taxpayer help or they integrate into Canada and benefit and pay equally like any other person born on this land.
 

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As I said before, once you remove your emotions, the residential school issue is simply one of investigation and analysis and a report later. Done. Nothing else can be done that will help anyone. I feel bad for these people, as do we all, but throwing money at their decedents will not help those children.

As for what we do with 1st nations today. From what I have seen, the aboriginals who integrated into Canadian society, on average have prospered as well as any other average Canadian and the ones that are determined to remain on the reservation and hold onto their old way of life have not.

Knowing that, should we force them into Canadian society. I doubt that will go over well and I am not a big fan of forcing anyone to do anything, but continuing to fund a losing program (like reservation life) sounds pretty dumb to me. Either the 1st nations live on their reservations and look after themselves 100%, without any Cdn taxpayer help or they integrate into Canada and benefit and pay equally like any other person born on this land.
I don't think it's integrating into Canadian society as much as interacting with the modern world.
There are many successful first Nations communities that remain quite distinct from Canadian culture, but are still quite successful.

The bad cases are those who simply reject modern society, Canadian society, and fail to take responsibility. But that's not even really a First nations problem, any person or group that rejects society and fails to take personal responsiblity has trouble.
 

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Once the records are released we can determine what was done......right or wrong, and make sure it never happens again.

We can hold the organizations and governments to account. Individuals may be gone but those whom they represented are still around.

The records from the Catholic order would include what's known as the Codex Historicus, a daily journal of the operations of the schools.

Overall, the records are about day-to-day operations but could also include admittance records, financial statements, human resource records and teachers' profiles.

It reminds one of the oft-remarked "banality of evil," Frogner said.

"It's these very hum-drum daily operations of the schools until you recognize what's being operated."

For example, the records would likely reveal the Western names forced upon some children, and the lack of quality of the curriculum.

And there would be medical documentation about the children — where deaths and grievous injuries were recorded.

"One of the things we're actually trying to do when we get these records is … recognizing that these aren't just the operations of schools, but these are also the documentations of children's lives," Frogner said.

"We can virtually organize the records around the lives of the students themselves."
 

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The church should also pay up what they agreed to. Hiding behind teams of lawyers doesn't show much remorse for what they did.

By this account the Catholic church has only paid $4 million of what they were supposed to pay.

Meanwhile, NDP MP Charlie Angus, the party's critic for Indigenous youth, says the church has dodged paying survivors compensation.

As part of the IRSSA, Catholic groups were required to pay tens of millions of dollars — $29 million in cash to the now-defunct Aboriginal Healing Foundation, $25 million in "in-kind" services, and to use their "best efforts" to fundraise $25 million for healing programs. However, a controversial court ruling in 2015 let the groups off the hook after they raised only about $4 million of the $25-million goal.
 

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The church should also pay up what they agreed to. Hiding behind teams of lawyers doesn't show much remorse for what they did.

By this account the Catholic church has paid $4 million of the $79 million they were supposed to pay.

Meanwhile, NDP MP Charlie Angus, the party's critic for Indigenous youth, says the church has dodged paying survivors compensation.

As part of the IRSSA, Catholic groups were required to pay tens of millions of dollars — $29 million in cash to the now-defunct Aboriginal Healing Foundation, $25 million in "in-kind" services, and to use their "best efforts" to fundraise $25 million for healing programs. However, a controversial court ruling in 2015 let the groups off the hook after they raised only about $4 million of the $25-million goal.
I don't get it, do they expect other Churches to fundraise and pay compensation for what some long dead group of other people did?

The thing that is missing here is when they say "Catholic Church" what do they mean?

Don't worry this will never happen again, now the government gives immunity from liability as a standard part of their contract for services.
Think about it, today, if the government seizes your children, like they did for the residential schools, everyone involved is immune from prosecution and liability.
 

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I don't get it

Yes we know that.

Do they expect other Churches to fund raise and pay compensation for what some long dead group of other people did?

Yes......or take it out of petty cash.

The thing that is missing here is when they say "Catholic Church" what do they mean?

They mean the Catholic church.

I don't get it.

Yes we know that.
 
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