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4) Support those who cannot work with government benefits.

5) Wait for a vaccine or treatment.
This is where the 'plan' breaks down. Governments can't continue to support people negatively affected by closures in the lifestyle they would like to remain accustomed indefinitely. Canada is going to be borrowing perhaps 25% of its economic output this year between the feds and the provinces. If this drags on, things are going to get painful for someone. It might mean confiscating savings through increased inflation to bring debt under control.
 

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This is what I think may happen to the Canadian economy.
We are only into 6 months of Covid-19 borrowing (350 Billion) and the best case scenario is a vaccine in early January and then another year to stick a needle into countless armpits.
Perhaps another trillion and a half in borrowing in the next 18 months. (Not to include provincial borrowing)

Depositors Beware
Cyprus-style bank "bail-ins" now also approved for Canada
July 01, 2013

.... the “demonetization” shock that Prime Minister Narendra Modi gave the Indian economy on November 8, 2016

India's Currency Cancellation: Seigniorage and Cantillon Effects
By Larry White
November 28, 2016
 

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The existing plan IS based on what we know today. Stay home if possible, keep a distance of 2 metres when you go out, if you can't maintain a distance, wear a mask.

The reality is MrMatt if we do not find a vaccine or cure and we cannot get the Reproduction Rate below 1% worldwide which would see the virus die out naturally, then the current plan is the 'no vaccine' plan for the foreseeable future as in for years to come.

You seem to think that it is possible to come up with a different plan if there is no vaccine or cure found. There is no different plan we can come up with.
There is a middle ground before a wide open free for all, and a total "lock you in your house" lockdown.
BTW, both of those are "plans".
Yes, I do think it is possible to develop a plan that has a better balance between controlling spread and shutting down the economy.
Right now the current actions are causing a lot of harm to people and I think we deserve better. The response to concerns is "it will be better when we get a vaccine". That's a sad excuse to not develop a better plan.

The ban on evictions and non payment of rent is a disaster.
The fact that there are no care options for kids is a massive problem for working parents, and the economy at large.
Employers are going bankrupt, and we're racking up too much debt too fast.

In short the current plan is not sustainable, we need a sustainable plan to handle this.
 

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Finance Minister Morneau announced that Canada's debt has been rolled over for lower interest rates at longer terms.

Canada will spend less servicing the debt than we have been.

Canada still has a "safe" debt to GDP ratio and has options on how to deal with it.

Future rounds of government support will no doubt be more targeted and at a far lower cost.

Canada's debt really isn't something to fret about.
 

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Finance Minister Morneau announced that Canada's debt has been rolled over for lower interest rates at longer terms.

Canada will spend less servicing the debt than we have been.

Canada still has a "safe" debt to GDP ratio and has options on how to deal with it.

Future rounds of government support will no doubt be more targeted and at a far lower cost.

Canada's debt really isn't something to fret about.
When people wake up they will not trust government bonds
 

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Discussion Starter #47
There is a middle ground before a wide open free for all, and a total "lock you in your house" lockdown.
BTW, both of those are "plans".
Yes, I do think it is possible to develop a plan that has a better balance between controlling spread and shutting down the economy.
Right now the current actions are causing a lot of harm to people and I think we deserve better. The response to concerns is "it will be better when we get a vaccine". That's a sad excuse to not develop a better plan.

The ban on evictions and non payment of rent is a disaster.
The fact that there are no care options for kids is a massive problem for working parents, and the economy at large.
Employers are going bankrupt, and we're racking up too much debt too fast.

In short the current plan is not sustainable, we need a sustainable plan to handle this.
I'll ask you one more time MrMatt. You keep saying what you see the PROBLEM as being but you keep failing to come up with a better PLAN to follow.

If you think a 'better plan' is possible, then tell us what that better plan is. Otherwise, all you are doing is generating noise pointlessly.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
Here in Canada, people are thinking that things are getting better. They're getting worse.

It can be easy to find ourselves focusing on the tree rather than the forest sometimes. We tend to look at Canada and see ourselves as doing reasonably well in regards to the virus. But look at the world (the forest), not the tree (Canada) and it is an entirely different picture.


There is no flattening of the curve worldwide and we should be giving thought to that. While Canada may be doing relatively well as an individual country, we do not live in a bubble even with our borders closed to non-essential travel. People are moving from country to country and the virus will move with them.

Yesterday, the WHO reported a record 250,000 new reported cases worldwide. Remember, if the Reproduction Rate of the virus is above 1, the numbers will continue to rise exponentially.

We may be only letting in 1 case in 1000 of new cases that exist outside for example but if the number of 1000s is increasing then so will the number of cases that come in from outside.
 

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I'll ask you one more time MrMatt. You keep saying what you see the PROBLEM as being but you keep failing to come up with a better PLAN to follow.

If you think a 'better plan' is possible, then tell us what that better plan is. Otherwise, all you are doing is generating noise pointlessly.
1. I have mentioned aspects of a better plan.
2. The "wait for a vaccine" "plan" is a bad plan, it's slightly better than having COVID19 parties.

Endlessly repeating that "the only plan is the vaccine plan" is making noise.

My plan, improve testing and detection.
Improve lockdown protocols, enforce them.
Open up parts of the country and economy that we can, including childcare, so people can get to work and make money to pay for all this.
Fix the non-payment of rent problem. Develop a plan to ensure landlords remain viable.
The support payments are a mess, some for you, none for you, and it's also created a poverty trap where people are better off on CERB than going back to work.


On our current trajectory, unless we get people back to work, is very bad, we're already gotten massive economic damage. I'm honestly concerned with
I'm very concerned that if they don't shape up soon, and develop better plans, we will get wiped out by the next problem. What happens if we get another pandemic in 5-10 years? we just piled on generational debt for this one.
 

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Here in Canada, people are thinking that things are getting better. They're getting worse.

It can be easy to find ourselves focusing on the tree rather than the forest sometimes. We tend to look at Canada and see ourselves as doing reasonably well in regards to the virus. But look at the world (the forest), not the tree (Canada) and it is an entirely different picture.
No doubt worldwide cases will have some effect on Canada but it's really out of our hands. We just need to focus on protecting ourselves while keeping food and other supply chains going.
 

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I freely admit that I am probably the most pessimistic person posting within these forums.
I think that most everyone who owns stocks are doing the utmost to lessen any negativity because it will collapse the markets.
If you own stocks you need to see a rosy picture everywhere just to sleep at night.
I just don't comprehend how anybody can view the economic situation and not realize that we are witnessing the collapse of the Canadian economy. (The collapse of American Empire)
The only reason that the stock market is all gung-ho is because the Federal Reserve is purchasing major stocks and leaving the scraps for day traders.
Black Rock, a private entity owns everything now.
Nothing positive has happened within the Canadian economy in the past 6 months.
 

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Conservatives won't be happy until the economy reopens and then is forced to shut down completely again.

They should stop taking their cues from the idiot Republicans in the US. Look at the mess they are in now.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
No doubt worldwide cases will have some effect on Canada but it's really out of our hands. We just need to focus on protecting ourselves while keeping food and other supply chains going.
What is still within our hands is our borders. Pressure to open them will continue to build. What do you imagine the airlines are saying to the government right now. Countries with closed borders and quarantines for those who are allowed in as we have, are getting pressure to relax their restrictions.



Jcowan reports there only being 20 people on a recent flight back to Vancouver that they took from Puerto Vallarta. How long do you think airlines can operate with those kinds of numbers. The 14 day quarantine period either at the destination someone is flying to, or returning to, or both, is no doubt stopping a lot of people who would otherwise decide to travel.

Someone cannot take a week or two cheap package holiday if they also have to add on a 2 week quarantine on their return. What do you think cheap package holiday providers are advocating for. The pressure is obvious.

We have to keep our borders as closed as possible until there is an effective vaccine or effective treatment. That is likely to be a considerable length of time still. We saw how quickly cases rose in the beginning based primarily on travel and that will simply happen again if we open our borders.

The concern I have is that our federal government may give in to economic pressure from all those who are affected by having our borders closed and a quarantine in place and there are lot of such businesses, both large and small.
 

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We have to keep our borders as closed as possible until there is an effective vaccine or effective treatment. That is likely to be a considerable length of time still. We saw how quickly cases rose in the beginning based primarily on travel and that will simply happen again if we open our borders.
You know, Conservatives have been saying that for years.
Even today the Trudeau government is refusing to secure the borders.

Here in Ontario, particularly Windsor-Essex, a significant number of COVID19 cases are from illegal immigrants.
The sad reality is that much of this could have simply been solved or reduced if the government simply enforced laws, and employed common sense policies.

How many cases are from the Federal government allowing people in without mandatory quarantining, telling people not to wear masks, failing to enforce immigration law or secure the border.
At lower levels they failed to enforce the health orders against public gatherings. To be fair even the PM himself was encouraging and going to large gatherings, as he jumped between provinces to go vacationing.


Fail fail fail.
 

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Discussion Starter #56
You know, Conservatives have been saying that for years.
Even today the Trudeau government is refusing to secure the borders.

Here in Ontario, particularly Windsor-Essex, a significant number of COVID19 cases are from illegal immigrants.
The sad reality is that much of this could have simply been solved or reduced if the government simply enforced laws, and employed common sense policies.

How many cases are from the Federal government allowing people in without mandatory quarantining, telling people not to wear masks, failing to enforce immigration law or secure the border.
At lower levels they failed to enforce the health orders against public gatherings. To be fair even the PM himself was encouraging and going to large gatherings, as he jumped between provinces to go vacationing.


Fail fail fail.
Be careful what you repeat re the Windsor Essex issues MrMatt. The workers are not to blame.

Most migrant workers are legal workers. When they arrived they had to quarantine for 2 weeks and they were all clear. It is only after starting to work that they caught the virus from residents of the area. In other words, we gave it to them.

There are SOME illegal workers that is true but they are a minority and before you go blaming them for anything, ask yourself who is employing them and under what conditions. It is the conditions they work under and how they are treated that is the problem, not the workers themselves who are the problem.

 

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Migrant workers are performing an essential service by working the fields. We should be protecting them as best we can, not cramming them into terrible living conditions while here.

These farmers have been in business for 100 years. They are very large farms and could have built suitable accommodations by now. It is shameful how the workers are treated.

COVID is revealing a lot of problems in our society, from the conditions in old age homes to part time jobs with lousy wages.

Employers complaining they can't compete with an $11 an hour CERB benefit is ridiculous. Small wonder the momentum is gathering for a Basic Living Wage.
 

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Be careful what you repeat re the Windsor Essex issues MrMatt. The workers are not to blame.

Most migrant workers are legal workers. When they arrived they had to quarantine for 2 weeks and they were all clear. It is only after starting to work that they caught the virus from residents of the area. In other words, we gave it to them.

There are SOME illegal workers that is true but they are a minority and before you go blaming them for anything, ask yourself who is employing them and under what conditions. It is the conditions they work under and how they are treated that is the problem, not the workers themselves who are the problem.

I didn't blame legal migrants.

I blamed the criminals who are violating our laws.
This includes those with illegal status, those who are encouraging and supporting their presence, and the fact that they're working to avoid detection and monitoring of COVID19.

The people who entered the country illegally and avoid our COVID19 measures are to blame.
The people employing them and offering them money to break our laws are to blame.
The failure of the government to enforce our laws are to blame.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I didn't blame legal migrants.

I blamed the criminals who are violating our laws.
This includes those with illegal status, those who are encouraging and supporting their presence, and the fact that they're working to avoid detection and monitoring of COVID19.

The people who entered the country illegally and avoid our COVID19 measures are to blame.
The people employing them and offering them money to break our laws are to blame.
The failure of the government to enforce our laws are to blame.
I agree but I think you are not assessing blame appropriately. An illegal worker cannot work if no employer will hire him. So the control of illegal work is in the hands of the employers. The illegal workers have no control. It is not a case of there being equal blame.

So why is it that we hear people blaming illegal workers but NOT hearing about the employers? Why do our public health boards, municipal and provincial governments, not 'name and shame' the farms who are employing illegal workers and why do they not prosecute these employers and employment agencies'? I think that is where we should be focusing our anger and not on the workers where it seems most people are focusing it.

 

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Discussion Starter #60
I think people need to think about putting themselves in someone else's shoes sometimes. Imagine yourself living in a very poor country like Quatemala and having a family to support on the average income there of $2,470 per YEAR. You hear that if you go to Canada you can get paid $13 an hour and work a 70 hour week. That's $910 a week, $3,640 per month and if you stay and continue to work illegally year round, that's $43,680 per year. That's nearly EIGHTEEN times what you can earn on average in Quatemala!

Of course they don't tell you that the unscrupulous agencies will rip you off for a major portion of that or that the employer may treat you like dirt, have you work under chemical spraying without even giving you a mask, etc. but even after all of that the amount you will earn will be far beyond anything you could hope to earn at home. Can you see how this could get someone to risk deportation, their health and put up with being treated badly? Would you not perhaps consider doing the same for your family if you were them?

Here in Canada, even our poor have no idea of what real poverty is like in other parts of the world. We haven't 'walked in their moccassins'.

There but for the grace of God and the accident of birth, go you and I.
 
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