Canadian Money Forum banner

21 - 40 of 83 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #21

We still seem to be being pretty lax in dealing with travellers. Some provinces are not even reporting information on air travellers. ie. not calling you and saying, there was a positive case on the flight you flew home on. As long as there are a limited number of travellers, we may be able to contain any clusters but if travel increases we will be back where we started. That's where they all came from originally remember.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
884 Posts
Some sports leagues will remain viable if there is no long-term treatment or vaccine. NFL can still make a lot of money even if nobody ever watches a live again. Even the others that are gate dependant, should see an increase in broadcast rights. Restaurants, which fail consistently in good times, are in the biggest trouble.....along with travel related industries. New industries and staycations would become the norm.....life will go on, albeit it differently than we know now.

I think the winter will be the true test....another 6 months of vaccine development, plus the end of patios and the end of a lot of outdoor activities..........in 6 months, we’ll know a LOT more of what we can handles, and a LOT more of what we can’t.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,736 Posts
I understand all of that MrMatt but you are still just presenting a potential (if no vaccine) problem without offering any suggestions as to a solution. You are saying you want a plan from the government, why would any PERSON in government have a better idea than you might have of potential solutions.

IF we do not get an effective vaccine or treatment, then yes, this may well continue for a very long time. In that case each of us, not just the government is going to have to figure out how we will deal with it.
Sorry, you seem to have it backwards.
I'm in reality.
There is no vaccine, what is the plan?

You're the one pushing a plan that depends on a potential vaccine that may or may not ever exist.
That's like betting on winning the lottery for retirement, it's wishful thinking, not a plan.


I did suggest parts of a solution.
More monitoring, and developing plans for more targeted lockdowns, and develop more sustainable support plans.

A family of 4 now has 40k more federal debt because of COVID19 spending, and the economy is shrinking. We can't handle wave 2, or the flu with the current approach.

We need a cost effective strategy, that is based on available technology and resources.

I'll repeat my question that I asked earlier.
1. Since there is no vaccine, and it looks like there will never be an effective vaccine, are you saying we should just stay locked down with closed borders "forever"?
2. Do you think people will accept that?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
434 Posts
The final phase of the plandemic/scamdemic after they destroy the economy to get rid of CO2 & nationalize corporations is to vaccinate us with micro chips replace our jobs with universal basic. income.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #25
I'll repeat my question that I asked earlier.
1. Since there is no vaccine, and it looks like there will never be an effective vaccine, are you saying we should just stay locked down with closed borders "forever"?
2. Do you think people will accept that?
It is your opinion there will never be an effective vaccine MrMatt. You are entitled to your opinion but it is only an opinion, not a statement of fact as you write it. So your question should be 'IF there is no vaccine.........

No we cannot stay locked down entirely forever and I don't think anyone is suggesting we can. However, it may well be that we will have to live with no vaccine or cure for a long time. Perhaps we will never have one as you think will happen.

For however long, the government at all levels have told us what restrictions they believe we have to adhere to until there is a vaccine or cure. The obvious extension of that if there is no vaccine or cure is that those restrictions will continue and that will be the 'new normal'.

It isn't a question of 'accepting' it or not. The only question is whether people will comply with the restrictions or not. Some will and no doubt some will not. Each individual will have to make their own decisions in that regard, the government cannot give you an answer that you want to hear when there is no answer that you want to hear other than 'this doesn't exist'.

YOU will have to decide whether YOU are willing to go to work, willing to get on a plane, willing to wear a mask if you want to be allowed to enter a store, etc. The decisions are made by YOU and it is YOUR plan you will have to come up with. You can't expect the government to decide those things for you.

You keep saying you want government to tell you the plan if there is no vaccine or cure found, but what you really want is a plan that gives you what you want rather than what you can have. If there is no vaccine or cure, the plan is simple, we will have to continue to do as we are presently doing (most of us anyway). The government can't change that for us.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #26
Right now, there is a lot of attention being paid to schools re-opening. I wonder how many parents or future parents are looking at the situation and questioning decisions as a result of what this has shown us in regards to children and schooling in relation to parents who work.

It is only in the last 50 years or so that both parents going out to work has been an accepted norm. Personally, I consider that a bad thing. In the past, one parent stayed home when there were children to raise and one parent was the 'bread winner'. It is not progress when both parents have to work in order to put food on the table and a roof over their family's heads.

If that were still the case today, all the uproar over schools re-opening would not exist. Not enough childcare spaces open, no problem, don't need them with one parent at home. Alternate school days or online learning, no problem, if one parent is always at home. etc.

So if I were a 20 something year old today and contemplating having children, the first question I would want to ask myself is 'can we afford to have children'? That means, one parent working and one staying home. If you can't afford to do that, you can't afford to have children. That is how your parents or grandparents had to look at it and that may be the lesson we need to learn from this for the 'new normal'.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,736 Posts
It is your opinion there will never be an effective vaccine MrMatt. You are entitled to your opinion but it is only an opinion, not a statement of fact as you write it. So your question should be 'IF there is no vaccine.........
Yes it is my opinion, but it is also a fact.
Today there is no effective vaccine. << fact.
There are several under test, but to the best of my knowledge they haven't been proven safe and effective.

I claim the lack of a vaccine today is a fact. If that is not true, can you tell me what the actual factual status of an effective COVID19 vaccine is? Does it exist>? Does it not exist?

You seem to have the opinion that in the future there will be a vaccine.
Predictions of what may happen in the future are not facts.

In this case we are literally arguing about the definition of "fact" vs "opinion".

A world with an effective COVID19 vaccine, at this time, is a hypothetical future that may or may not occur.
As much as I'd like to have a vaccine, and I think it's a great way forward, I don't think it's a good idea to act like it's a certainty.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,736 Posts
No we cannot stay locked down entirely forever and I don't think anyone is suggesting we can. However, it may well be that we will have to live with no vaccine or cure for a long time. Perhaps we will never have one as you think will happen.

For however long, the government at all levels have told us what restrictions they believe we have to adhere to until there is a vaccine or cure. The obvious extension of that if there is no vaccine or cure is that those restrictions will continue and that will be the 'new normal'.
Okay, I agree, we can't stay locked down forever.
You're not a mind reader, please don't attribute to me thoughts and positions I don't hold.
I did state that there is evidence that a vaccine may not be possible. That is a factual statement of reality and science at this time.

Secondly I disagree with your "obvious extension".
Once the immediate risk passes, I fully expect the government and population at large will forget and move on, irrespective of a cure, vaccine, or treatment.
For example, once the risk of SARS passed, we stopped working on a vaccine, and we either gave away or threw out our infectious disease stockpile of masks and gowns.
I think the most "obvious extension" is that we'll tire of the warnings, and we'll go back to normal. Because we always forget history and lapse back to what we did before.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,450 Posts
Conservatives (and Republicans in the US) are missing an opportunity with the schools closed...their kids are no longer spending the day being indoctrinated by progressive teachers in a progressive system. They should be embracing home schooling. The people hurt the most by home schooling are Liberals and Democrats who can no longer brainwash the kids.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
434 Posts
They have not really found a cure for anything since polio. Never finding a cure for cancer is a big money maker. How many people has big pharma killed to make a profit. Big pharma & Gates needs to be investigated instead of being worshiped by the media.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #31
Once the immediate risk passes, I fully expect the government and population at large will forget and move on, irrespective of a cure, vaccine, or treatment.
When will that be MrMatt? SARS was contained and died out of its own accord. This virus is not going to do that anytime soon. We can see what happens as things are re-opened, the number of cases rises. We can deal with small local outbreaks if we have good tracing but if we get too many new cases, that ability to contain it will not continue.

If everyone goes back to 'normal' behaviour today or tomorrow or the day after tomorrow then the virus will spread once again and we will be back where we started. There is NO chance of the 'immediate risk' passing MrMatt.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,736 Posts
When will that be MrMatt? SARS was contained and died out of its own accord. This virus is not going to do that anytime soon. We can see what happens as things are re-opened, the number of cases rises. We can deal with small local outbreaks if we have good tracing but if we get too many new cases, that ability to contain it will not continue.

If everyone goes back to 'normal' behaviour today or tomorrow or the day after tomorrow then the virus will spread once again and we will be back where we started. There is NO chance of the 'immediate risk' passing MrMatt.
No idea when that will happen.
I think the government needs to decide on their plan. We're only half assing it right now.

For example, now that we're entering Phase 3 in Ontario, cities are debating if they need masks.
Why weren't they debating this in March?
The risk was higher, such a policy would have had stronger public support.

I'm not saying we should go back to 'normal' today or tomorrow.
I'm just saying that basing all our plans on a vaccine is not responsible.
Maybe we'll get lucky and get a vaccine, but I don't think that should be our primary path.
Betting on a vaccine to get us out of this mess is like betting on a lottery win for retirement.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #33

That provides a decent explanation of when it is likely to 'end'. The problem is that the answer is not one that people want to hear.

People do not want to hear that we are going to have to deal with a 'new normal', they want to hear we are going to go back to our 'old normal'. That is NEVER going to happen.

Even if they had a cure or vaccine tomorrow, there are many things that will never go back to the way they were. I started this thread to consider what some of those changes may be.

For example, this may be the end of indoor malls. They were already suffering before the pandemic and this has just accelerated the problems they face.

Casinos here in Ontario are now allowed to open but limited to 50 people. Why they are limited to 50 people and a Walmart isn't I don't understand but what is, is. You cannot operate a large casino with just 50 customers and so while they can open, they are not going to open.

While easing of restrictions is allowing businesses to re-open, that does not mean they will survive. Many will no doubt try to re-open but find they cannot turn enough profit under existing restrictions and will end up having to close permanently. We are already seeing this happen. Imagine if say 25% of small businesses disappear, that alone means we will be living in a 'new normal'.

There will be many unexpected consequences of this pandemic that we have yet to see manifest themselves and that will change how 'normal' looks from now on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #34
No idea when that will happen.
I think the government needs to decide on their plan. We're only half assing it right now.

For example, now that we're entering Phase 3 in Ontario, cities are debating if they need masks.
Why weren't they debating this in March?
The risk was higher, such a policy would have had stronger public support.

I'm not saying we should go back to 'normal' today or tomorrow.
I'm just saying that basing all our plans on a vaccine is not responsible.
Maybe we'll get lucky and get a vaccine, but I don't think that should be our primary path.
Betting on a vaccine to get us out of this mess is like betting on a lottery win for retirement.
MrMatt, there is no plan for IF we get a vaccine or cure. There is no plan for what IF we never get one. You cannot plan for everything. What is going to happen is going to happen regardless of what anyone does including governments. The only thing we can be sure of in my opinion is that we are never going to go back to the 'old normal'.

This is an unprecedented period of CHANGE that has been forced on us by a virus that does not care about politics, the economy or our health. Trying to figure out how things will change is like trying to figure out which houses will survive a hurricane and which will not.

The whole issue of masks is a different issue and not really relevant to this thread. There is a thread on that topic as you know.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,736 Posts
MrMatt, there is no plan for IF we get a vaccine or cure. There is no plan for what IF we never get one. You cannot plan for everything. What is going to happen is going to happen regardless of what anyone does including governments. The only thing we can be sure of in my opinion is that we are never going to go back to the 'old normal'.

This is an unprecedented period of CHANGE that has been forced on us by a virus that does not care about politics, the economy or our health. Trying to figure out how things will change is like trying to figure out which houses will survive a hurricane and which will not.

The whole issue of masks is a different issue and not really relevant to this thread. There is a thread on that topic as you know.
I somewhat agree, we don't have much of a plan.
That's the problem, we're experiencing a major global pandemic that has killed thousands, resulted in billions in financial damage, caused untold pain and suffering, and is expected to have significant impacts on several aspects of our lives.

Yet there are people who refuse to accept that we should be planning our response.

I agree, trying to figure out how things will change is like trying to figure out which homes will survive a hurricane and which will not.
Hurricane Resistant Homes | Wind Resistant Homes | Custom Coastal Homes | Deltec Homes
I'm not sure what your point was.

Actually debating the use of masks now IS my point, we're in the "final stages" and we still don't have a plan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,765 Posts
We have a plan, and it is the only plan available.

1) Continue to wear masks and social distance

2) Continue testing and contact tracing.

3) Re-open the economy selectively and carefully. Monitor the situation and close down problem areas again.

4) Support those who cannot work with government benefits.

5) Wait for a vaccine or treatment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #37
We have a plan, and it is the only plan available.

1) Continue to wear masks and social distance

2) Continue testing and contact tracing.

3) Re-open the economy selectively and carefully. Monitor the situation and close down problem areas again.

4) Support those who cannot work with government benefits.

5) Wait for a vaccine or treatment.
Agreed, that is basically the current plan. The problem is that MrMatt doesn't want to hear that is the plan. He wants to hear the plan IF there is no vaccine or cure.

But no one is willing to go there yet. It may be that a year from now or whenever with no vaccine or cure in sight, that people will start to say, 'well, we better plan for this to be our world forever'. However until people are ready to go there, the plan is as you say sags, deal with what is right now and wait for a vaccine or cure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #38
It was not too long ago that airlines were talking about a shortage of pilots. Now they are all laying off thousands of employees including pilots.

Part of the 'new normal' for those who continue to fly will obviously be far fewer flights to choose from.

Our local regional airport had 8-10 flights per day to Toronto. Now Air Canada and Westjet combined have 6 per WEEK. Imagine trying to work that into your business travel schedule.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,736 Posts
Agreed, that is basically the current plan. The problem is that MrMatt doesn't want to hear that is the plan. He wants to hear the plan IF there is no vaccine or cure.
That's right, I don't want to hear about the plan, based on the assumption they develop a vaccine or cure.

I want them to work on the plan based on the REALITY TODAY, ie no vaccine or cure.

We're clearly on different views here. I want plans based on what we know, you're willing to say a plan based on predictions of scientific breakthroughs. I'm not against having such plans, I'm just saying the focus should be on the plan that reflects what we know today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,307 Posts
Discussion Starter #40
That's right, I don't want to hear about the plan, based on the assumption they develop a vaccine or cure.

I want them to work on the plan based on the REALITY TODAY, ie no vaccine or cure.

We're clearly on different views here. I want plans based on what we know, you're willing to say a plan based on predictions of scientific breakthroughs. I'm not against having such plans, I'm just saying the focus should be on the plan that reflects what we know today.
The existing plan IS based on what we know today. Stay home if possible, keep a distance of 2 metres when you go out, if you can't maintain a distance, wear a mask.

The reality is MrMatt if we do not find a vaccine or cure and we cannot get the Reproduction Rate below 1% worldwide which would see the virus die out naturally, then the current plan is the 'no vaccine' plan for the foreseeable future as in for years to come.

You seem to think that it is possible to come up with a different plan if there is no vaccine or cure found. There is no different plan we can come up with.
 
21 - 40 of 83 Posts
Top