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I don't think Mr Matt understands how individual rights work.

This kind of thing has gone to the courts repeatedly. People cannot do any old thing they want, if it also causes harm to the public or country.

Individual rights and freedoms are not unlimited. That's why I can't drive under the influence of alcohol. It's also why freedom of speech is not limitless. It very much is limited when it crosses into the realm of harm to the public.

In the case of 20 year olds who want to drink & party, and are spreading COVID in the middle of a pandemic where the hospital system is collapsing ... the public interest overrules the desire of the young adults to have fun.
Also you have no "right" to act in a willfully negligent manner towards others.
Personally I think drunk driving should carry the death penalty. I've probably stated this before too.
 

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Well I guess my point is that these people are acting in line with their priorities.

As far as they should have the right to do whatever they want, they DO have the right to do this.
Sorry the Constitution is pretty clear that we have the right to freedom of association.

The real question is when should the government be allowed to infringe on our constitutionally protected rights?
Didn't james point out the limits to do what you feel like: driving under the influence, for instance?
 

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Didn't james point out the limits to do what you feel like: driving under the influence, for instance?
I think it's funny that the same one decrying the social gatherings aren't furious Trudeau still hasn't closed the border.

Also how is a drive in church service a risk to anyone?
When infringing our rights, it must be a measured response.
 

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Discussion Starter · #84 ·
I think it's funny that the same one decrying the social gatherings aren't furious Trudeau still hasn't closed the border.
I am disappointed Trudeau hasn't closed the border. I've been saying for months that we should be doing what Australia has done:

Restrict travel between provinces, and
Limit entries into Canada, and
Strict quarantine for everyone entering Canada, at monitored facilities (traveller pays the cost)

And I say this as a guy who loves to travel and who normally hops between provinces and across the US border, probably 10+ times a year.

These measures violate rights and freedoms under normal times, but these are special circumstances and I think there's a good case to be made for adding these restrictions. Same way that authorities are justified in restricting private gatherings and church services, at the moment.
 

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I am disappointed Trudeau hasn't closed the border. I've been saying for months that we should be doing what Australia has done:

Restrict travel between provinces, and
Limit entries into Canada, and
Strict quarantine for everyone entering Canada, at monitored facilities (traveller pays the cost)

And I say this as a guy who loves to travel and who normally hops between provinces and across the US border, probably 10+ times a year.

These measures violate rights and freedoms under normal times, but these are special circumstances and I think there's a good case to be made for adding these restrictions. Same way that authorities are justified in restricting private gatherings and church services, at the moment.
Not these measures violate rights and freedoms RIGHT NOW.
It's a reasonable infringement in some situations.

There is a world of difference between.
You have these rights and we're infringing on them for a good reason.
vs
You don't have these rights right now because we have a problem to deal with, so we've taken them away.


Human rights aren't merely something that the government can grant and recall on a whim, you have them. It's just if the government will choose to respect them at a particular time.


If you believe in rights, as enshrined in our constitution, you have to acknowledge they're being infringed.
 

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Reportedly, about 3 weeks ago, the number of covid related deaths in Canada outside of old age homes was 165, while the number of deaths inside old age homes was over 12000.

That might help explain the perspective of youth.
 

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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
I think it is also dependent on one's immune system not just age. Someone in the 20's with underlying health condition is at a greater risk than someone in the 40's whose health is a perfect state.
I agree. There are many 20 year olds at very high risk from covid.

I also want to point out that my very healthy 35 year old relative (no underlying health conditions, extremely good physical shape) ended up in hospital for COVID. He was there for a week and had pneumonia. After they both caught it, his wife told me that they wish they had taken COVID more seriously, and they had been stupid and reckless.

Many in their 20s and 30s currently have the wrong idea, that COVID isn't a big deal to them and no worse than a cold/flu. But it really is worse. Within my extended circle (what I hear from friends) I now know of a handful of people in their 20s/30s who caught COVID. Roughly 10 to 15 infected people that I am aware of.

Of those ~ 15 that I'm aware of, 1 was in hospital with severe conditions, and 1 died.

The death wasn't my direct friend, but was a close friend of my ex girlfriend. He was in his early 30s, in Washington State. She told me on the phone and was crying. But hey maybe your adult children in their 20s/30s will be luckier and won't die from it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #90 ·
For a while I had eased off on blaming the 20-somethings, thinking that they might be getting infected because they work in dangerous jobs etc.

But after what I've seen this weekend, I don't think so any more. It's pretty clear that anyone over age 30-40 in my area is being very careful. Their behaviours are ultra cautious... always wearing masks, keeping distance, not talking to people. Inside our building, these older people always wear masks and work hard to avoid people.

Meanwhile

I've seen partying of the 20-somethings, including large groups of them wandering around both indoors and outdoors, and 20-somethings not wearing masks inside the building. Large groups of them, everywhere I look. On the floor of my building I witnessed a 7 hour party with tons of mixing of people in this age group.

They are the only age group that I repeatedly see doing these dangerous behaviours. So I'm back to thinking that 20-somethings are in fact the problem and spreading it by being stupid. At least in my neighbourhood.

Trust me, it's NOT covid fatigue. They really just don't care. Even with provincial laws and my building's rules requiring masks, the 20-somethings are still the only group which I consistently see maskless.

They are putting my life in danger and I do not appreciate that.

Of those ~ 15 that I'm aware of, 1 was in hospital with severe conditions, and 1 died.
I can also now update this statistic. Of the roughly 15 people I know in their 20s/30s who caught COVID
1 died
2 were hospitalized
 

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For a while I had eased off on blaming the 20-somethings, thinking that they might be getting infected because they work in dangerous jobs etc.

But after what I've seen this weekend, I don't think so any more. It's pretty clear that anyone over age 30-40 in my area is being very careful. Their behaviours are ultra cautious... always wearing masks, keeping distance, not talking to people. Inside our building, these older people always wear masks and work hard to avoid people.

Meanwhile

I've seen partying of the 20-somethings, including large groups of them wandering around both indoors and outdoors, and 20-somethings not wearing masks inside the building. Large groups of them, everywhere I look. On the floor of my building I witnessed a 7 hour party with tons of mixing of people in this age group.

They are the only age group that I repeatedly see doing these dangerous behaviours. So I'm back to thinking that 20-somethings are in fact the problem and spreading it by being stupid. At least in my neighbourhood.

Trust me, it's NOT covid fatigue. They really just don't care. Even with provincial laws and my building's rules requiring masks, the 20-somethings are still the only group which I consistently see maskless.

They are putting my life in danger and I do not appreciate that.



I can also now update this statistic. Of the roughly 15 people I know in their 20s/30s who caught COVID
1 died
2 were hospitalized
Maybe the 20-somethings are just more woke?

Like come on, let them do what they want. It's not like they are partying WITH YOU.

If you're so scared, wear a mask, bring sanitizer everywhere you go, and get the vaccine.

Stop hating on 20-somethings and generalizing an entire decade of people. You also have to understand most of these people have nothing to live for anyway, since the economy is in the shitter.
 

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Stop hating on 20-somethings and generalizing an entire decade of people. You also have to understand most of these people have nothing to live for anyway, since the economy is in the shitter.
Sorry but I just have to chuckle on that last paragraph saying not to generalize then the following sentence does exactly that. :)

But seriously, 20-29 age group have much less to fear on covid stats wise. Also, I know people in all age groups not following "the rules", albeit the younger crowd seems to be less inclined to do so.
 

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Discussion Starter · #93 ·
Like come on, let them do what they want. It's not like they are partying WITH YOU.
Actually, they effectively are, because unmasked 20-somethings are congregating at the elevator and also spitting up the hallway which I use... these are shared public areas where I live.

They are directly putting me in danger, not to mention indirectly by spreading COVID in my community.

Nobody has the right to put my life in danger just because they want to have parties. And I will do everything within my powers to stop them, and make sure they have a very miserable time.
 

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Actually, they effectively are, because unmasked 20-somethings are congregating at the elevator and also spitting up the hallway which I use... these are shared public areas where I live.

They are directly putting me in danger, not to mention indirectly by spreading COVID in my community.

Nobody has the right to put my life in danger just because they want to have parties. And I will do everything within my powers to stop them, and make sure they have a very miserable time.
And you don't have the power to control other people.

Don't be in an elevator with them, then.
Refuse to get into the elevator with anyone. Push the elevator button with a pen and sanitize it.

Why are you leaving your place, anyway?
Better be only for groceries.

Wear 3 masks and avoid people and sanitize.

It's not fair for you to want to control other people for an insecurity that you have and fear that you hold.

Unless someone is purposefully and blatantly putting you in danger, then your feelings are just as overblown as covid. People deserve their freedom.
 

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^ I have to somewhat agree with KaeJS on this and so not in particular with the 20s something. But applicable to these people of all ages - their mentality of "invincibility" or "only happens to someone else" until they meet their maker. And then, it'll be "oh well, too bad, too late" without having to say "told/warned you so". That'll be the their cost of "freedom" too.
 

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And you don't have the power to control other people.

Don't be in an elevator with them, then.
Refuse to get into the elevator with anyone. Push the elevator button with a pen and sanitize it.

Why are you leaving your place, anyway?
Better be only for groceries.

Wear 3 masks and avoid people and sanitize.

It's not fair for you to want to control other people for an insecurity that you have and fear that you hold.

Unless someone is purposefully and blatantly putting you in danger, then your feelings are just as overblown as covid. People deserve their freedom.
This is exactly why Urban areas become authoritarian, or lawless wastelands.
Either James gets everyone to behave the way he wants, or KaeJS gets his way and everyone can act with reckless abandon.
When your neighbours are literally in your face (like in an elevator) there isn't much room for live and let live.
 

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And you don't have the power to control other people.

It's not fair for you to want to control other people for an insecurity that you have and fear that you hold.

Unless someone is purposefully and blatantly putting you in danger, then your feelings are just as overblown as covid. People deserve their freedom.

By people purposefully ignoring health regulations and laws, it has an impact on more than themselves. I am usually mind your business and let the stupid be stupid. With COVID, it shows people do not live in their own bubble. One can choose to be 'free' and normally I would say if they get sick, that's there problem.

However with COVID, if one gets sick,, they could do the following:
  • Require medical attention which, I would be a little more okay if they waived all their rights to any medical treatment if they get ill. I would be okay if the person who get sick due to the pursuit for freedom gives up their need to for care from the group taking away their freedom. It doesn't stop here, they could also infect someone else.
  • Infect some one else, which can infect another person, which will eventually lead to medical treatment or death.
  • A person requiring hospital care is taking a bed from someone else. The are people with non critical but important surgeries that are being cancelled because of this person

In this case, people's reckless behavior does impact others even if they don't intend to.
 

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I think we need to define reckless.

Standing in an apartment lobby without a mask is not really reckless.

If someone is so worried about passing them... They should be wearing a mask. Hell, if you're THAT worried... Hold your breath for 30 seconds as you walk by.

You can't freak out if someone is just being normal. If someone gets in an elevator with you, maskless, and starts coughing everywhere... Well, that is reckless and unacceptable REGARDLESS of covid. They should be covering their mouths and facing away from you.

So...

I think there is a difference.
 

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Here that would be breaking the current health regulations .... is it not reckless then?
That's a question of opinion.
Lots of people consumed illegal drugs, expecting that the police wouldn't enforce the law.
So how reckless is it to admit you smoked pot?
If you're the VP, it might get you elected, if you just work in the whitehouse it might get you fired.
 
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