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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a friend in his 30s who's overseas. He lives with a few 20-somethings (mostly Americans I think) and his circle mainly consists of people in their 20s. He's the oldest person among them.

I wanted to share their perspective on COVID because it's different than many of ours. This group of young adults has been endlessly partying since the pandemic began. They still host large parties, constantly drink, go to bars and nightclubs, restaurants, meet new people, travel between cities, etc.

Everyone in their circle (about 10 people) has caught COVID. From what I heard, most had symptoms similar to a regular flu and were out of commission for a few days. Sometimes with a cough that lingered for weeks. It was mild for all of these 10 people, and they live in a humid, tropical environment.

My friend started off by saying: COVID really isn't a big deal. We all caught it, and it was like a flu.

I pointed out to him that he's talking about a group of people in their 20s. The disease does not hit 20 year olds very hard at all, but it's riskier for people over 40, and especially into 50s, 60s, 70s, etc. I told him that that many people are getting angry at groups like his for being reckless and spreading the disease.

His response was that: the 20-somethings are getting angry at the rest of society for shutting down all their service industry jobs and closing down all the fun places, closing down parties.

I argued that the risk of harm to the older demographics is a far bigger concern than a few service industry jobs, or the freedom to have large parties.

Anyway... it was interesting hearing the perspective of young people. He sounded surprised when I pointed out to him that everyone he knows who handled COVID "very easily" was young, in their 20s.
 

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His response was that: the 20-somethings are getting angry at the rest of society for shutting down all their service industry jobs and closing down all the fun places, closing down parties.

I argued that the risk of harm to the older demographics is a far bigger concern than a few service industry jobs, or the freedom to have large parties.
1) 20 somethings are insanely narcissistic these days, and that is a totally expected reaction. They also probably don't know anyone who has died (nor do hardy any of us) from Covid. They are also young and stupid and rash, as were we all back then.

2) It is really, really easy for people who have secure incomes and no great desire to visit crowds anyways (like you, and me) to cast judgement on young people and declare their desires for jobs and social interactions as "trivial" compared to the health of the elderly... but that is because you have no skin in the game. No school aged kids or young adult children trying to find jobs, no job loss yourself.

I am tired of 30-40 somethings with stable easy jobs, which have only gotten easier since being sent to "work from home", complaining about the apparent lack of seriousness that others are taking the pandemic. All when their own lives have only seen net-gains from the lock downs (more time with family, more money saved, less hard work, more exercise, more home cooked meals). And these people want to dump all over others who are in desperate situations because of unjustifiable lockdowns, and are now out work, going to lose their house, their spouse, and their young children are being damaged developmentally in ways nobody even knows by these horrible lockdowns and masks...

And the rich milllenials with easy lives continue to crow about how they care so much about the elderly that they feel the need to scream at the working class (who aren't work much anymore) because they're getting uppity about whether mask or lockdowns work or not to fix this problem, or that they sometimes let slip that their number 1 priority in life isn't grandma's good health.
 

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As a 70 year old with some severe health conditions, I'm a patsy for Covid or any other infection that comes along, and I agree with your 20 something friends. The reaction to Covid is over blown. I, and those like me, should self isolate and take precautions, not difficult if you are retired. Younger people should get on with their lives. Everyone forgets that precautions like masks and social distancing were never meant to defeat Covid, and they haven't. They were meant to slow down the spread of infection which they did.
It may be a moot point if vaccines are out by the end of the year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
As a 70 year old with some severe health conditions, I'm a patsy for Covid or any other infection that comes along, and I agree with your 20 something friends. The reaction to Covid is over blown. I, and those like me, should self isolate and take precautions, not difficult if you are retired. Younger people should get on with their lives.
And you actually think that "the right" to party and drink in large groups is on par with your right to live?

The problem I have with these arguments (like what my friend says) is that in my eyes, having big parties is a luxury thing. A non-necessity. This isn't anything like kids who need to go to school or even the need for young people to have social contacts.

These 20 year olds are telling me that they NEED to have parties and bar nights. They are not willing to stop doing that. Even if they were 'locked down' they would have plenty of social contact. But that's not enough for them. They demand the continuation of the lifestyle they want, which means getting drunk, going out to bars and nightclubs, and inviting random people over to their house.

I do not agree with putting the lives of older people (like you) in danger just because a bunch of 20 year olds, who still have another 70 years of life ahead of them, want to party like this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am tired of 30-40 somethings with stable easy jobs, which have only gotten easier since being sent to "work from home", complaining about the apparent lack of seriousness that others are taking the pandemic. All when their own lives have only seen net-gains from the lock downs (more time with family, more money saved, less hard work, more exercise, more home cooked meals). And these people want to dump all over others who are in desperate situations because of unjustifiable lockdowns, and are now out work, going to lose their house, their spouse, and their young children are being damaged developmentally in ways nobody even knows by these horrible lockdowns and masks...
Children would be more free to socialize and keep normalcy if these 20 year old party animals weren't being so reckless. Their reckless activities (insisting on continuing large social gatherings & nights out drinking) increases the spread of the illness. Those higher numbers then force the rest of us -- such as families with kids -- to have to compensate by isolating more.

I agree with you that families, kids, and people in some industries are put in very tough, stressful situations by lock down measures. So let's avoid the need for these lockdowns of last resort.

I would think you would agree that people who are socializing extravagantly, like this group of 20/30 year olds I know, should be MORE responsible and curtail their disease-spreading activities... so that families, children, and workers in tough situation can continue to have normalcy.

This is a group effort, among the population. If everyone acts responsibly, the disease doesn't spread so rapidly and we can handle it (hospitals are OK). However, if people become reckless, such as holding huge weddings, large party nights, club nights, then the disease spreads rapidly and it forces more restrictions fore veryone.

Anyone today who is suffering from the restriction measures, such as parents, or unemployed service industry workers, should realize that it's the reckless people in society (those having large gatherings or insisting on living life as usual) who fuelling this bad situation.
 

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I don't believe other people partying puts me in danger. I could argue the reverse. If everyone else but me were exposed to Covid and developed immunity the disease would die out and I would be in no danger of catching it.
 

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Maybe we should reserve hospital space only for old people, since people believe they are only ones facing bad outcomes from COVID.

Everyone else can take their chances at home. Go home and take some Tylenol. It will probably pass in a few days.

They might have to hire old people who isolate themselves to replace younger people working in long term homes.

Sorry we have to let you go, but you are too young and irresponsible to work with the elderly.

And then there are the 'herd immunity" States like North and South Dakota. They are doing so well right now.

Overloaded ICUs, freezer trucks for bodies, exhausted and sick doctors and nurses.........wonderful results.
 

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It is the self-centered nature of 20s
I don't believe other people partying puts me in danger. I could argue the reverse. If everyone else but me were exposed to Covid and developed immunity the disease would die out and I would be in no danger of catching it.
That could take years potentially. In the meantime, there is a risk of overloading our hospitals and exhausting and/or killing our front line workers. There will also be much more exposure in the general community almost certainly resulting in more infections in the elderly who won't be able to socialize with anyone under their age cohort. No visitations in homes, no care giving, nothing much at all.

Thus I don't know that a free-for-all regarding socializing is the answer. Just in the past 2 weeks, BC has had a major outbreak in the small town of Salmo and this week, Revelstoke... the sizes of which resulted from socializing. Folks need to have more discipline than that. A bit of social responsibility is not a big burden to carry for a limited, e.g. one year time frame. Trying to find the appropriate balance is the difficult, if not impossible, part.
 

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The problem I have with these arguments (like what my friend says) is that in my eyes, having big parties is a luxury thing. A non-necessity. This isn't anything like kids who need to go to school or even the need for young people to have social contacts.
To play the devil's advocate, living past 70 is very much a non-necessity as far as society is concerned. It's a luxury thing. The future needs those kids happy and reproducing a whole lot more than it needs retirees to hang in there a few more years.
 

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It is true the older we get, the more expendable we are. The economics are unquestionable. Estates get crystallized with all that unrealized cap gains suddenly taxable (last to die), CPP doesn't pay out as much, and Ottawa saves on social welfare (OAS). Why not just shoot them on their 70th or 75th birthdays and not have any burden on the health system at all?
 

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Are you trying to appeal to firearm owners?
The point is none of us oldies (and I am one of them) want to suffer through an covid-19 ICU experience and certainly not intubation, so the alternative is a chemical cocktail, gunshot or similar. It is easy for some folks here to be flippant/cavalier/indifferent to the loss of the elderly until they have to take some responsibility for making our exit a humane one. FWIW, I want to be able to call the 'shots' on how I exit.
 

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The point is none of us oldies (and I am one of them) want to suffer through an covid-19 ICU experience and certainly not intubation, so the alternative is a chemical cocktail, gunshot or similar. It is easy for some folks here to be flippant/cavalier/indifferent to the loss of the elderly until they have to take some responsibility for making our exit a humane one. FWIW, I want to be able to call the 'shots' on how I exit.
There are many non covid related things I'd rather not suffer through on my way out. Several certainly worse than intubation. I agree we should get to choose but we're apparently not there yet as a society.
 

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I agree but the tone here was distinctly about sacrificing our expendable seniors so that 20somethings et al can continue to party. If that is the case, then those 20somethings better take on the responsibility to help facilitate the death of the elderly person unlikely to recover from covid-19. IOW, there are consequences to being socially irresponsible of one kind or the other
 

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His response was that: the 20-somethings are getting angry at the rest of society for shutting down all their service industry jobs and closing down all the fun places, closing down parties.

I argued that the risk of harm to the older demographics is a far bigger concern than a few service industry jobs, or the freedom to have large parties.

Anyway... it was interesting hearing the perspective of young people. He sounded surprised when I pointed out to him that everyone he knows who handled COVID "very easily" was young, in their 20s.
It's a tough position to be in, for any age really. I know people from 20-70 that would just go about their regular business if you let them ... it's not "only" the young ones. In a way I'd almost be willing to say "let them" provided they gave up their right to a hospital bed and ensured anyone else they came in contact with knew they were high risk people before they got together.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I don't believe other people partying puts me in danger. I could argue the reverse. If everyone else but me were exposed to Covid and developed immunity the disease would die out and I would be in no danger of catching it.
I think it absolutely does put you in danger, because these are the ways the disease is spread. If they were more responsible, the virus wouldn't circulate as aggressively.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Maybe we should reserve hospital space only for old people, since people believe they are only ones facing bad outcomes from COVID.

Everyone else can take their chances at home. Go home and take some Tylenol. It will probably pass in a few days.
And you know what? When people land in the hospital, the medical staff also prioritizes saving the lives of younger people, especially when resources are stretched (like they are right now).

Take CPR for example. It's possible to work CPR and AED (defibrillation) for a very long time on someone. So there's a key question in hospitals: how long do you keep working on someone? Do you give up after a couple minutes, or do you keep working for 20 minutes ... 30 minutes ... 40 minutes to try getting the heart going again.

Spoiler alert: they work longer on the younger patients.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
To play the devil's advocate, living past 70 is very much a non-necessity as far as society is concerned. It's a luxury thing.
Strongly disagree.

First of all, 70 used to be a very old age but really isn't any more. I'm not trying to be politically correct, I'm talking about modern life expectancy. Things have changed a lot from a century ago. Not only do people live much longer, but people at this age are typically in much better shape than in the past.

Living past 70 is not a luxury. We all deserve to live full and happy lives, and "full life" means living to whatever age is reasonably attainable with your genetics and our modern healthcare.

It's hard to argue this stuff because it also comes down to cultural beliefs and values. MY values are that a person's worth as a human are not tied to employment, career, or pumping out children. Otherwise, a mother would be worthless once she stopped giving birth & raising children, or someone who is injured and unable to work any more would lose all worth as a human... that's ludicrous.

The future needs those kids happy and reproducing a whole lot more than it needs retirees to hang in there a few more years.
This is a false dichotomy. Maybe for an extremely lazy society, it might be this black & white. But with any reasonable effort and intelligence, we don't have to choose between happy kids and protecting seniors.

Example: I'm a single young adult. I went on a date this week with a woman I like, and have gone on many dates during the pandemic. At the same time, I wear masks in public areas, I avoid going out when I have cold-like symptoms, and I avoid large gatherings. The woman and I are on the same page that we won't meet if any of us have symptoms, and we will take precautions to limit COVID spread.

These are SIMPLE measures which are extremely minor inconveniences. I can still date and do my extremely useful youthful things that make me so incredibly valuable to society. I expect others my age to do the same.
 

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I have been getting statistics on the virus from this web site Coronavirus Update (Live): 62,082,069 Cases and 1,451,136 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
Here is the page specific to Canada Canada Coronavirus: 359,064 Cases and 11,894 Deaths - Worldometer
Looking at the facts, the number of infections is growing much faster than the number of deaths. This makes sense if we are doing more and better testing and have better treatments than we had back in January. This is why I think it more important to look at the death rate.
We see there was a big wave of Covid in the spring, followed by very few infections and deaths in the summer, and a lesser wave in the fall. I can't explain this but have heard that this is typical of viruses like colds and flu. They come in 2 waves then peter out and disappear.
If we look at total deaths we find there have been 11,894 Covid related deaths in Canada or 314 per million of population, a death rate of .0314%. Total cases 359,064 so even if you get it bad enough to be tested your chance of surviving is still 97%

This compares to 1407 deaths per million for Belgium and 16 per million for Japan, the highest and lowest for developed countries. It does not seem reasonable that 2 countries with similar population density and medical systems should be so far apart but there it is. At the same time China reports 3 deaths per million but a lot of people suspect such statistics from China to be politically corrected.

My takeaway from all this is that the virus is not as deadly as initially feared. The death rate has already peaked and will continue to drop with or without a vaccine. I haven't even mentioned improved methods of treatment because I know it is controversial and grounds for being banned on this web site to even suggest there are cures.

Right now there are 60,666 known cases of Covid in Canada, of which 60,216 are classified as "mild" and only 450 or 0.7% as serious or critical. I doubt that those 450 cases are going to crash the Canadian medical system.

I hope this helps put the situation in perspective. I don't follow the mainstream media, I prefer to go by facts so if you think I am nuts, this may be why.
 

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I generally agree James that your example to start with, 20 year old clubbing in close proximity, is high on the list of bad activities that should be considered for restriction...

But even then, I'm still concerned. 20 year olds need to continue to learn to socialize properly in groups and meet new friends and find spouses. That is very important to them and to society. Yes it could be done a bit differently and recklessly, but I'm afraid that is actually asking too much of them, nor are there systems to facilitate youth socializing in reasonable ways any longer provided by parents and communities, so they are on their own.
 
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