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I was thinking of corona virus component ...
The corona virus component of the seasonal flu vaccine?

It's been posted that some here are pessimistic about a covid-19 vaccine because there has never been a licensed corona virus vaccine for any flavour of corona virus.

You have some references to how an experimental vaccine is being blended into the seaonal flu vaccine?


Other references say that for corona virus, four that can affect humans cause the common cold with mild to moderate symptoms. A biotech fund guy referred to that when explaining why there was no funding for a corona virus vaccine. He also said that it would require something that covered all four where if it was 100% effective (not likely) it would take care of about 20% of the common cold cases. According to him, that put the market too small to take care of the costs and hope for a profit.


It still seems to me to be comparing apples to oranges that does not tell us much of anything.


... another example “Infectious bronchitis virus (IBV) is a widespread avian coronavirus, whose control relies mainly on extensive vaccine administration. Unfortunately, the continuous emergence of new vaccine-immunity escaping variants prompts the development of new vaccines.

in my understanding even if vaccine miraculously effective, it will be short lived before another shot is needed.
That's a possiblity ... but a different question than the initial vaccine's effectiveness. And a key part IMO will be whether like tetanus a booster shot is needed or as you seem to be assuming, a new vaccine is required.

What's the mutation rate for IBV versus covid-19?

If it's fast, IBV may not be a good predictor considering influenza is significantly faster than covid-19 to change.


... Now, how many people bothered with annual influenza vaccine.
  • Too few Canadian adults (38%) got vaccinated in the 2017-2018 season. Therefore I predict corona virus is here to stay
Sure ... but skipping it in that year was not seen as potentially causing a major disruption to one's life.


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All depends on whether or not we can manufacture and distribute the vaccine faster than the virus can mutate. Who know how effective the vaccines will be against a variant strain. It could be a yearly annoyance we have to learn to live with, like influenza...
True ... but keep in mind that the reports so far put covid-19 changes at a fraction of the speed that influenza changes. That slow rate of change is why a veteran of failed vaccine candidates was hopeful in the spring that there would be a vaccine.

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True ... but keep in mind that the reports so far put covid-19 changes at a fraction of the speed that influenza changes. That slow rate of change is why a veteran of failed vaccine candidates was hopeful in the spring that there would be a vaccine.

Cheers
Which report is that?

Any report that calls COVID19 "The Coronavirus" is in my opinion suspect.
There are many coronaviruses out there. Just because we only really care about COVID19, and the closely related strains doesn't mean the others don't exist.
Note they do have a good section on why Flu does mutate fast.


The reason for the annual shot is an expectation of what the dominant spreading strain will be. Each year they predict that different strains will be spreading, so that's what they vaccinate against.
 

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Which report is that?
... Any report that calls COVID19 "The Coronavirus" is in my opinion suspect.
So if the headline is "coronavirus" but the details are for SARS-COV-2 does the info remain suspect?

What about "new corona virus"?


"Like a coronavirus, a flu virus is made of RNA — a single strand of genetic material — but the two are otherwise quite different, Swartzberg said.

"The influenza RNA is what we call segmented," he said. "And those segments can interchange very easily. Whereas, the RNA with this virus is just one long chain. So it's much easier for influenza to change its genetic nature. It's much more difficult for SARS-CoV-2 to do that.

Combine that relatively unchanging internal genetic code with the mutation-prone spike protein, and you get a virus that's somewhere in the middle: more changeable than measles or mumps, but not as prone to mutation as the flu."



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From the article above.
The concern, Das added, is that if only half of a population is vaccinated, natural selection will begin to favor random mutations that help the virus "escape" the vaccine. Like an enemy army announcing its presence before it attacks, vaccinating the population too slowly could "warn" the virus to begin evolving faster.
 

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So if the headline is "coronavirus" but the details are for SARS-COV-2 does the info remain suspect?
No, that's fine.
But when the reporter refers to it as "The Coronavirus" I question their understanding of the topic.
Even "The new Coronavirus" is IMO iffy, which new version?

It is important that there are significant differences with this particular Coronavirus vs other strains we've worked with historically. Details matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #88
Here's a CNBC video that covers the new vaccine tech and also talks about how Pfizer and Moderna were given special legal immunity. They have no liability, and can't be sued in case of problems with the vaccine. This is true in both the US and Canada.


 

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What's different from the legal immunity granted vaccine makers for previous pandemic vaccines like H1N1?

Employers being able to require employees to get the vaccine is the difference I noticed.

AFAICT, it's a repeat of the past actions. And like the past, some point to the legal immunity as a reason they are nervous and delaying or skipping getting the vaccine.

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I do not understand how mRMA vaccine induced viral spikes proteins produced by human organism can trigger better immune response vs spikes from inactivated virus ...
The HPV vaccine is reported to have a much stronger immune response than the live virus, never mind the inactivated virus.

The first factor mentioned is that the live virus has proteins that block the immune system response that the vaccine does not have. The second factor is the virus has a low concentration of a viral coat protein that the vaccine has a higher concentration.

I haven't seen details that would explain why the mRNA vaccine would have a stronger immune system response but thought you'd like to know about the factors that give other vaccines a stronger immune system response.


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Portuguese health worker, 41, dies two days after getting Pfizer jab
The mother-of-two, who worked in paediatrics at the #Portuguese #Institute of #Oncology in #Porto, is not said to have suffered any adverse side-effects after being vaccinated.
#Ms #Acevedo’s father #Abilio #Acevedo told #Portuguese daily #Correio da #Manha: ‘#She was okay. #She hadn’t had any health problems.
autopsy probably gonna “find”, internal haemorrhage or intracranial thrombus.
 

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What's different from the legal immunity granted vaccine makers for previous pandemic vaccines like H1N1?

Employers being able to require employees to get the vaccine is the difference I noticed.

AFAICT, it's a repeat of the past actions. And like the past, some point to the legal immunity as a reason they are nervous and delaying or skipping getting the vaccine.

Cheers
Well since pharma is typically subject to strict liability, they basically won't do much and won't do it fast without waivers.

The problem is that it is a risk balance.

I agree with protecting people, but it does significantly slow development (and increase cost).

With COVID19 the politicians have decided a higher level of risk is warranted, so they are transferring the risk to the people instead of the corporations.
 

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Sure ... but I'm questioning the idea that the liability wavier is "new" instead of the same as has been done before.

Or to put it another way, if James got a H1N1 vaccine back in 2009/2010 then my understanding is that he also was not able to sue for vaccine related issues.


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Sure ... but I'm questioning the idea that the liability wavier is "new" instead of the same as has been done before.

Or to put it another way, if James got a H1N1 vaccine back in 2009/2010 then my understanding is that he also was not able to sue for vaccine related issues.


Cheers
Yes it's a relatively common practice to make products more economically viable.
Profits before people!
Except now we have vaccines to help people.
 

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The HPV vaccine is reported to have a much stronger immune response than the live virus, never mind the inactivated virus.

The first factor mentioned is that the live virus has proteins that block the immune system response that the vaccine does not have. The second factor is the virus has a low concentration of a viral coat protein that the vaccine has a higher concentration.

I haven't seen details that would explain why the mRNA vaccine would have a stronger immune system response but thought you'd like to know about the factors that give other vaccines a stronger immune system response.


Cheers
Sounds a little like the background info behind immunotherapy for the fight against cancer. Nobel laureate Jim Allison figured out that Cancer tumors actually turn off our immune system. That is why our bodies do not help us much when it comes to fighting cancer. Immunotherapy is a new technology that has had very good success (and some setbacks). In a nutshell, immunotherapy is designed to turn our immune system back on so that it sees cancer as the threat it actually is. Once turned back on, our immune system then attacks the tumor like a rottweiler attacking a slab of beef.
 

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Portuguese health worker, 41, dies two days after getting Pfizer jab
The mother-of-two, who worked in paediatrics at the #Portuguese #Institute of #Oncology in #Porto, is not said to have suffered any adverse side-effects after being vaccinated.
#Ms #Acevedo’s father #Abilio #Acevedo told #Portuguese daily #Correio da #Manha: ‘#She was okay. #She hadn’t had any health problems.
autopsy probably gonna “find”, internal haemorrhage or intracranial thrombus.
... aside from the stated no known health problems, I would be interested to know if she had ANY vaccination(s) of any kind (eg. measles, mumps, chickenpox, etc.) in her life. This could be a first severe reaction (unfortunate case of death) she got from a vaccination.
 

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Discussion Starter #97
... aside from the stated no known health problems, I would be interested to know if she had ANY vaccination(s) of any kind (eg. measles, mumps, chickenpox, etc.) in her life. This could be a first severe reaction (unfortunate case of death) she got from a vaccination.
But remember, mRNA vaccines are a totally different technology. They have never been used on large populations before today.

That means somebody could have no problem with previous vaccines, but might have a sensitivity to these synthetic lipid nanoparticles (LNP) and/or the PEG substance present in them.
 

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But remember, mRNA vaccines are a totally different technology. They have never been used on large populations before today.

That means somebody could have no problem with previous vaccines, but might have a sensitivity to these synthetic lipid nanoparticles (LNP) and/or the PEG substance present in them.
... I am well aware of that - recall my first post on this subject with word "experimental"? Anyhow, I would still be interested to know if she had any vaccination of any kind before because I know at least 1 person who never had a vaccination of any kind before (for religious or some weird private reason). It would be unfortunate that these folks fall into the one of a kind class to die from this type of technology/vaccination.
 

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^ Okay, she's a nurse working in paediatrics at the Portuguese Institute of Oncology and was one of the 538 workers of the institute that received the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. Let's see what Pfizer has to say.
 
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