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This is really a power struggle between the US and China. Canada's legal system shouldn't be involved in this. The extradition treaties are for people who commit real crimes, like murder etc. Meng Wanzhou is going be pawn in the hands of the US government to be exchanged for something from China (Trump pretty much alluded to that a while back). Now Canada has to deal with this mess.
 

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Fraud not a real crime? Nice. But this isn't even a ruling on whether she did anything. That part is coming up.
 

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MP may give more insight into the judge's ruling, but it appears to me that the judge took US sanctions off the table to the extent that Meng's future will be decided by Canadian laws around fraud. The last line in the judgement hints that the AG could decide if there is "sufficient admissible" evidence to go forward with fraud charges in Canada.

I am wondering what the phrase "admissible evidence" means in this context of a Chinese citizen dealing with a US bank and what evidence is available to the Crown in Canada. Of note, that HSBC bank settled their dispute with a DPA in the US. Could a DPA in Canada be offered the Huawei company ?

Or, could the AG decide there is not enough "admissible evidence" to prove fraud and Meng would be free to go.
 

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This is really a power struggle between the US and China. Canada's legal system shouldn't be involved in this. The extradition treaties are for people who commit real crimes, like murder etc. Meng Wanzhou is going be pawn in the hands of the US government to be exchanged for something from China (Trump pretty much alluded to that a while back). Now Canada has to deal with this mess.
Fraud not a real crime? Nice. But this isn't even a ruling on whether she did anything. That part is coming up.
@Topo, How much of your money can I steal before it's a crime?
 

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Meng isn't accused of stealing money. She is accused of misrepresenting Huawei's business dealings in Iran.
 

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Just imagine if we had handed her over to the USA immediately, 18 months ago... We'd have endured a couple weeks of tongue lashing from China and so-called human rights organizations in the news, we'd repeatedly have said "sorry, not our problem, just following the law, go to talk to big man down south"

And that would have been that.

Now here we are 1.5 years later and still caught in the middle of things.
Wonder what'll be the next mistaken action our government takes about something bad from China showing up at our doorstep... these things come in 3s, after all. 😝
 

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Just imagine if we had handed her over to the USA immediately, 18 months ago... We'd have endured a couple weeks of tongue lashing from China and so-called human rights organizations in the news, we'd repeatedly have said "sorry, not our problem, just following the law, go to talk to big man down south"

And that would have been that.

Now here we are 1.5 years later and still caught in the middle of things.
Wonder what'll be the next mistaken action our government takes about something bad from China showing up at our doorstep... these things come in 3s, after all. 😝
Well we sent them our emergency medical supplies, just before we needed them.

I'm waiting for Trudeau to claim it's racist to support Democracy in Hong Kong.
 

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Well we sent them our emergency medical supplies, just before we needed them.

I'm waiting for Trudeau to claim it's racist to support Democracy in Hong Kong.
Yes, and the idea was to stabilize the situation there before it became a pandemic. Unfortunately it was too little too late. In return, China has been sending back supplies. Even discounting those that don't meet standards, I'm sure the balance has evened out.
 

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@Topo, How much of your money can I steal before it's a crime?
It is not about stealing money or true fraud. Fraud is the legal cover. It is about breaking US sanctions. Maybe an infraction against the US government, but not for Canada. Would we care if she broke sanctions against Albania set forth by Nigeria? But we would care if an Albanian or Nigerian were defrauded.

Make no mistake. This is clearly political and we have no business doing their dirty work. Let the US deal with her anyway they want to. None of our business.
 

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It is not about stealing money or true fraud. Fraud is the legal cover. It is about breaking US sanctions. Maybe an infraction against the US government, but not for Canada. Would we care if she broke sanctions against Albania set forth by Nigeria? But we would care if an Albanian or Nigerian were defrauded.

Make no mistake. This is clearly political and we have no business doing their dirty work. Let the US deal with her anyway they want to. None of our business.
Okay, so their motivation is violation of US sanctions.
I'm not sure if she violated Canadian sanctions.


But the legal charge she is accused of is fraud, which is illegal in both Canada and the US.
 

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Okay, so their motivation is violation of US sanctions.
I'm not sure if she violated Canadian sanctions.


But the legal charge she is accused of is fraud, which is illegal in both Canada and the US.
Exactly. There are no Canadian sanctions to be violated. I am arguing that sanctions are a political tool and not directly related to the administration of justice. We give her to the US, they will immediately turn around and make a deal with China to release her. We are left on the hook with the political damage and it is a mockery of our justice system.
 

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The sanctions part wouldn't work legally, so the US added in the fraud element some time after the arrest.

So now the question is if Meng committed fraud according to Canadian laws, and there is enough "admissible evidence" to prove she did.

Are we now going to send investigators to China to gather the evidence ? Will the investigators interview HSBC officials involved ?

How likely is it that China will allow Canadian investigators to enter their country and investigate a bank, major company, and their citizens ?

In Canadian criminal law, proceeding with criminal charges requires it be justified in consideration of the public interest for doing so.

What would be in the Canadian's public interest to proceed any further ?

The AG should end it quickly by declaring there is no reasonable expectation of conviction.

They should send Meng home with our deepest apologies, and we should begin mending fences with China.
 

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Exactly. There are no Canadian sanctions to be violated. I am arguing that sanctions are a political tool and not directly related to the administration of justice. We give her to the US, they will immediately turn around and make a deal with China to release her. We are left on the hook with the political damage and it is a mockery of our justice system.
... and meanwhile the 2 Canadians continue to sufferably linger in some Hilton cell in China.
 

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Exactly. There are no Canadian sanctions to be violated. I am arguing that sanctions are a political tool and not directly related to the administration of justice. We give her to the US, they will immediately turn around and make a deal with China to release her. We are left on the hook with the political damage and it is a mockery of our justice system.
Yes sanctions are a political tool.

However, she is charged with fraud.
This is a crime in Canada.
The US is asking for her extradition for an act that is both a crime in Canada and a crime in the USA.

We're in a tough spot, but this is not the time for political interference with the judicial system.
It is the lives of Canadians, not something truly important like protecting Quebec votes.
 

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Yes sanctions are a political tool.

However, she is charged with fraud.
This is a crime in Canada.
The US is asking for her extradition for an act that is both a crime in Canada and a crime in the USA.

We're in a tough spot, but this is not the time for political interference with the judicial system.
It is the lives of Canadians, not something truly important like protecting Quebec votes.
The two Canadians held in China are also charged with espionage, which a crime in Canada too. Are we supposed to accept that just because they say it?

We could see through the smoke in both cases. It is not about justice, it is just a political game. Let them play it between themselves.
 

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The two Canadians held in China are also charged with espionage, which a crime in Canada too. Are we supposed to accept that just because they say it?

We could see through the smoke in both cases. It is not about justice, it is just a political game. Let them play it between themselves.
The reality is that we are pretty certain the charges against the Canadians are trumped up, while we're pretty sure that the fraud charges are legit.

I also agree that this is a political mess, and Trudeau should have done a better job defusing it at the time.
Honestly he's made such a mess out of everything I'm not even sure what the appropriate action is now.
 

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The reality is that we are pretty certain the charges against the Canadians are trumped up, while we're pretty sure that the fraud charges are legit.
I think charges on both sides are "Trumped" up; the sanction violations may be legit, but the fraud is just a technicality.
 

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Simple solution.

The AG says there is no reasonable prospect of conviction and she goes home.
 
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