[MrMatt]

The larger amount of infections and almost all ICU infections come from these 3 culprits.

1) Social Gatherings
2) Workplaces
3) Vehicles: Only reason no one cites vehicles is because they are usually part of either social gathering or car pooling to work.

Stopping any other areas of infection will be insignificant to the goal of reducing the current rate of infection.

Or public transit

 

[agent99]

The larger amount of infections and almost all ICU infections come from these 3 culprits.

1) Social Gatherings
2) Workplaces
3) Vehicles: Only reason no one cites vehicles is because they are usually part of either social gathering or car pooling to work.

Stopping any other areas of infection will be insignificant to the goal of reducing the current rate of infection.

Do you have a source for that information?

 

[OptsyEagle]

Do you have a source for that information?

Yes. The pandemic. Open your eyes.

Do you actually want to debate this. It won't be the first time my common sense provided the answer that took your experts so many months to eventually figure out, if it even can be scientifically confirmed.

 

[Beaver101]

Do you have a source for that information?

... his source is called "news regurgitation" that everyone else is doing on this board too.

 

[OptsyEagle]

You can wait until an expert helps you across the street, while a hungry tiger is somewhere behind you OR you can use your common sense and simply put distance between you and the threat and get yourself across the street. Waiting for help can be very dangerous. Confirmation is not without risk.

I have never asked anyone to agree with me, but I find it quite surprising that some of the concepts I was forced to bring to these boards, before anyone could prove them, were so difficult for people to work out in their minds.

Were masks really of no protection until the experts and the government about faced and eventually confirmed that they were? Was it really a stretch of ones imagination to figure out that covering up ones nose and mouth might actually be helpful in reducing the spread of respiratory viruses? Did it not seem peculiar to you that they wanted you to donate your mask to protect their healthcare workers, while still selling the idea that they had no use for your own protection?

Was dosage of infection really not applicable, when you could see from a mile away, the various effects it was having in outcomes from all ages. Did you really think pre-existing conditions explained all those variations, especially within the same age group?

This stuff was common sense.

 

[tradesviz]

Perhaps, reasoning and backing for herd immunity are now stronger than ever? ...

 

[agent99]

Yes. The pandemic. Open your eyes.

In other words NO - you have no basis.

I had asked a serious question. I didn't have the data, but was interested in learning more. I was surprised by the breakdown you posted. The way you wrote, it implied that that breakdown was factual, not something you just made up.

In this day and age, I don't believe anything I read on the internet. Fact Checking is important as this thread has shown!

 

[Synergy]

What new rules! It's a joke. You can still book an appointment for a rub minus the tug. You can still gather outdoors with friends in groups of 5 (and we all know how good people are at following distancing rules, etc.). You can still have a house cleaner, One could argue just about everything is essential for some, even the tug. People are dying, struggling to put food on the table, pay their bills, etc. all while we have others complaining about not being able to go downhill skiing! It's really sad. Just imagine what type of predicament we'd be in if this was a deadly illness with a high mortality rate.

 

[OptsyEagle]

In other words NO - you have no basis.

I had asked a serious question. I didn't have the data, but was interested in learning more. I was surprised by the breakdown you posted. The way you wrote, it implied that that breakdown was factual, not something you just made up.

In this day and age, I don't believe anything I read on the internet. Fact Checking is important as this thread has shown!

and that is exactly why you need to open your eyes. I am pretty sure what I said is probably factual by now, but since I was warning people of the high dose infection risk of the things I listed, before the 2nd wave pretty much proved it, I quit looking to see if many were starting to see what I could see fairly clearly in the data. It is a conclusion made by many data points that have been talked about for months. It would be a long post to explain it and I think most have started to see it anyway. Not everything you need to know in life has a scientific study to explain it to you. If someone tells you something, you need to be able to tell if it makes any sense or not. If you can't do that, the studies can mislead you as easy as an internet poster could.

In the mean time, feel free to keep gathering socially and the rest, until you get your data. Maybe that is a safer approach. Let us know.

 

[MrMatt]

and that is exactly why you need to open your eyes. I am pretty sure what I said is probably factual by now, but since I was warning people of the high dose infection risk of the things I listed, before the 2nd wave pretty much proved it, I quit looking to see if many were starting to see what I could see fairly clearly in the data. It is a conclusion made by many data points that have been talked about for months. It would be a long post to explain it and I think most have started to see it anyway.

Feel free to keep gathering socially and the rest until you get your data. Maybe that is a safer approach.

There is a difference between things you can logically see, and making claims regarding the data.

It's obvious and logical that interacting with more people increases your exposure.
It isn't clear that your top 3 list is correct.
It seems not unreasonable, but I think "vehicles" is not supported.
I agree being in a vehicle, masked or not, is likely to spread, but the data to say it's a top spreader isn't there.
I do agree there is a confound here as well.

I think shopping might have more spread than "vehicles".
since you don't have data, and I don't have data, i think it's wrong to claim it as a fact, rather than, at best, an educated guess.

 

[OptsyEagle]

There is a difference between things you can logically see, and making claims regarding the data.

It's obvious and logical that interacting with more people increases your exposure.
It isn't clear that your top 3 list is correct.
It seems not unreasonable, but I think "vehicles" is not supported.
I agree being in a vehicle, masked or not, is likely to spread, but the data to say it's a top spreader isn't there.
I do agree there is a confound here as well.

I think shopping might have more spread than "vehicles".
since you don't have data, and I don't have data, i think it's wrong to claim it as a fact, rather than, at best, an educated guess.

You see. You get it. Take from what is said that makes sense to you and leave out what doesn't. Now how hard was that?

Were vehicles really that important in my post to disregard the entire message? Vehicles are there because you cannot be more then 6 feet away, the ride can go on for hours sometimes, and it can be enclosed and sometimes only internal air is sometimes used if circulating heat. Even I said that most people infected would assume their vehicle infection happened during their social gathering or was another dropping of precautions at work, when they car pooled with a co-worker. In any event who cares. I am just warning people that it is definitely not safe. Sorry I don't have a study to prove that.

Lastly people. I never claimed anything as a fact. I made an internet post on what I have derived from many, many, many data points already listed. It may not be right. If we get better data I will update my views. Each new data point can have that effect. But I am certainly not going to wait for them. I am going to identify the highest areas of danger, that I can see, and I am going to avoid them, until I believe they have no more danger.

The 3 activities I listed will not account for 100% of infections, just the most dangerous ones.

 

[MrMatt]

You see. You get it. Take from what is said that makes sense to you and leave out what doesn't. Now how hard was that?

Were vehicles really that important in my post to disregard the entire message? Vehicles are there because you cannot be more then 6 feet away, the ride can go on for hours sometimes, and it can be enclosed and sometimes only internal air is sometimes used if circulating heat. Even I said that most people infected would assume their vehicle infection happened during their social gathering or was another dropping of precautions at work, when they car pooled with a co-worker. In any event who cares. I am just warning people that it is definitely not safe. Sorry I don't have a study to prove that.

Lastly people. I never claimed anything as a fact. I made an internet post on what I have derived from many, many, many data points already listed. It may not be right. If we get better data I will update my views. Each new data point can have that effect. But I am certainly not going to wait for them. I am going to identify the highest areas of danger, that I can see, and I am going to avoid them, until I believe they have no more danger.

The 3 activities I listed will not account for 100% of infections, just the most dangerous ones.

By convention, when you make a statement, it is assumed to be a statement of fact, unless declared otherwise.

When someone makes one unsupported claim, it casts suspicion that the other claims are also not supported.
If you show yourself to be in the habit of saying things that are not supported by the facts, people will assume you do that repeatedly, and you will have less credibility.

In my opinion, I think a vehicle could spread, likely more than many other situations. However i also don't think people are sharing cars who aren't already gathering for other purposes.
Myself, I don't know anyone who is carpooling with people outside their social bubble.

 

[OptsyEagle]

By convention, when you make a statement, it is assumed to be a statement of fact, unless declared otherwise.

When someone makes one unsupported claim, it casts suspicion that the other claims are also not supported.
If you show yourself to be in the habit of saying things that are not supported by the facts, people will assume you do that repeatedly, and you will have less credibility.

In my opinion, I think a vehicle could spread, likely more than many other situations. However i also don't think people are sharing cars who aren't already gathering for other purposes.
Myself, I don't know anyone who is carpooling with people outside their social bubble.

I disagree. I never assume anything, even with what is declared as fact. If someone wants to question my posts they can simply ask me to explain. The only reason the one in question was not explained was because I assumed most people were in agreement with it. To explain it would require a long post and in this case I think we can leave that aside for a slow day. I doubt too many people are going to feel safe riding in a car, with a stranger, with windows up, for 2.5 hours.

Most times I hear someone ask for back up info, I consider it just a form of laziness or a quick way to reduce the credibility of a post, without having any logical rebuke. Sure the person stating the idea may have that info closer at hand, but not always. The main point is the person stating it already believes it, so the onus is really on the person questioning it to google away and find out what they can find...or just add it to the long list of unproven but still interesting theories, or disregard it.

Anyway, nothing is certain. I could post plenty of published scientific garbage to prove that but I have to assume we have all come across that before. With C-19, most of the scientific garbage is made so confusing simply because they probably know it is garbage...but they probably still need more funding, so they publish it anyway. Still not very helpful even if one can understand it. And if you can't understand it, is it really better if this stranger on the internet has some credentials after their name? You still have never met this person.

Better, is a well thought out theory that is understandable, in my opinion. The above explains why I don't find much independent thinking on this board. I just like to post my theories and sometimes a person comes back with a useful rebuke and it allows me to make some small or larger adjustments. That is why I state things the way I do. To help others and more importantly to help myself. But to rule it out because of no confirming links is just rediculous.

 

[MrMatt]

I disagree. I never assume anything, even with what is declared as fact. If someone wants to question my posts they can simply ask me to explain. The only reason the one in question was not explained was because I assumed most people were in agreement with it. To explain it would require a long post and in this case I think we can leave that aside for a slow day. I doubt too many people are going to feel safe riding in a car, with a stranger, with windows up, for 2.5 hours.

Most times I hear someone ask for back up info, I consider it just a form of laziness. Sure the person stating the idea may have that info closer at hand, but not always. The main point is the person stating it already believes it, so the onus is really on the person questioning it to google away and find out what they can find...or just add it to the long list of unproven but still interesting theories, or disregard it.

Anyway, nothing is certain. I could post plenty of published scientific garbage to prove that but I have to assume we have all come across that before. With C-19, most of the scientific garbage is made so confusing simply because they probably know it is garbage...but they probably still need more funding, so they publish it anyway. Still not very helpful even if one can understand it. And if you can't understand it, is it really better if the person on the internet has some credentials after their name? You still have never met this person.

Better, is a well thought out theory that is understandable, in my opinion. I just like to post them and sometimes a person comes back with a useful rebuke and it allows me to make some small or larger adjustments. That is why I state things the way I do. To help others and more importantly to help myself. But to rule it out because of no confirming links is rediculous.

I always assume, because you have to.
In general I assume people are following the typical conventions of Canadian English interaction.
Words use a dictionary definition, or a statement is a statement of fact, not simply an opinion.

But that's okay, I'll adjust my assumptions wrt yourself. I'll assume you're just making stuff up and posting whatever you feel like at the time. I'll treat it accordingly.

Cheers.

 

[OptsyEagle]

I always assume, because you have to.
In general I assume people are following the typical conventions of Canadian English interaction.
Words use a dictionary definition, or a statement is a statement of fact, not simply an opinion.

But that's okay, I'll adjust my assumptions wrt yourself. I'll assume you're just making stuff up and posting whatever you feel like at the time. I'll treat it accordingly.

Cheers.

What the heck is all that? Your opinion. OK. If that works for you, knock yourself out.

Keep in mind. I have posted that list numerous times. Probably the 1st few times, it might have been a little less matter of fact. After no negative rebukes eventually I assume most people know them and hence they get listed a little differently, mostly for brevity. These ideas are developed over time. They are not just a single published opinion by me. They are ongoing work, but a statement of theory, at the time. That's all they are and can never really be anything else, no matter how much data might be available.

 

[Beaver101]

Opposition party calls for changes to Quebec curfew after homeless people ticketed

^ Are the La belle province cops that dense? Ticketing the homeless ones? Duh ... like they're able to pay.

'We have not even seen a draft:' Stay-at-home order takes effect at midnight but Toronto officials say they haven't seen legal regulations

^ And I don't think Torontonian cops are gonna to see a legal draft of any sorts when the premier's office has issued this advice: Stay Home. Restez la maison.

Is a skating rink an outdoor gathering? New Ontario rules present questions, Tory says

^ While our comical-toothless mayor is waiting for clarification on whether a skating rink is considered a social gathering spot? LOL.

 

[MrMatt]

Is a skating rink an outdoor gathering? New Ontario rules present questions, Tory says

^ While our comical-toothless mayor is waiting for clarification on whether a skating rink is considered a social gathering spot? LOL.

Tory is a wimp, he can make his own orders, or get his Chief Medical Officer to make an order, or simply have law enforcement order them to disperse.
He just doesn't want to make the tough calls, and upset voters, remember Tory is the mayor of a city that is mostly ignoring guidelines (see the COVID19 modelling update presentation from Tuesday, traffic patters are at 80+% of normal)

Ford is getting a lot of heat for making decisions and taking action, which will hurt in the next election. However his supporters understand that he's making decisions, and while not perfect, it's better than the disasterous leadership we've seen in other jurisdictions.

 

[agent99]

Did anyone read all that from OE??

 

[Eclectic12]

I disagree. I never assume anything, even with what is declared as fact ...

Statements of assumptions or implied assumptions can be ignored, right?

Most times I hear someone ask for back up info, I consider it just a form of laziness or a quick way to reduce the credibility of a post, without having any logical rebuke ...

Okay ... after coming up empty with google and review data points - what are your data points that make vehicles an issue?

My data points are that pre-covid:
1) work can't get enough people riding transit to get a company wide discount.
2) for my dept (about 20% of the staff), those using transit outnumber those who car pool by 3x.
3) those car pooling do so with those outside their home at a rate of 20% of the total that car pool.

Is it likely that those willing to car pool with strangers are going to increase during a pandemic?
Both categories during covid are likely irrelevant as we actively discouraged from going into the office where manager approval is required.


For my neighbours, far fewer are going into work. Of those who are, most are going in on their own, just like they did before and have said they are skipping requests to car pool. For those with more than one in the car, it's someone from the same house hold. Where one is already in the same household, some extra time is a car doesn't seem all that risky.


According to my friend who works at the LTC close by, car pooling has dropped.
Work is discouraging it as well.


There's also the delivery guys doing deliveries for ten hours.
Is a car pool for an hour going to add to the risk?

.... The main point is the person stating it already believes it, so the onus is really on the person questioning it to google away and find out what they can find...or just add it to the long list of unproven but still interesting theories, or disregard it.

I doubt either of our data points is going to prove much, other than make it clearer why there is a disagreement.

Anyway, nothing is certain ...

Yet somehow you are certain that asking for references is mostly laziness while asking for an explanation is not lazy while making no assumptions.


Cheers

 

[Beaver101]

Did anyone read all that from OE??

... answer: no.

I like that simple pic of a wastebasket though.