Excellent post.I'm a lawyer, and I think a lot of legal services don't provide great value for the consumer. Wills, on the other hand, are a veritable bargain (our office charges $650 for a set of two wills, powers of attorney, and health care directives (sometimes called living wills)).
I've handled several litigation files where people have tried to save money by doing their wills themselves. They ended up costing their beneficiaries thousands, to save a couple of hundred dollars. One woman- a professional- typed up her own will using a kit. She only got one signature on the will- a neighbour who was already quite old when he witnessed the will. That automatically meant that the will was not a formal legal will (which requires two signatures in my province), so that at a minimum, an expensive and time-consuming court application would have been required to administer the will, and the distribution of assets would be delayed for months.
It was worse, however. When the woman died, years later, the lone witness had dementia and could not verify that the signature was his or that he witnessed the will. The two sons believed the two daughters had applied undue influence at the time the will was written (the will broke a long-held promise to gift farmland to one of the sons), and the lone witness was of little use to testify to the mother's capacity or undue influence by the daughters. We eventually settled the matter without the need for court, but the total legal bills for both sides consumed about $20,000 of a $200,000 estate.
When I do a will for a client, I am essentially providing a formal legal opinion on capacity, one that a court will likely find reliable if the will is disputed down the road. I take detailed notes if your capacity is at all in issue. In my province a will can be challenged on the basis it does not adequately provided for a dependant (which can include an adult child in some circumstances). I therefore take detailed notes about your instructions when someone is left out of a will or receives a lesser share, which can be helpful if that individual ever challenges the will down the road. I talk to you about the possibility of setting up a trust for any beneficiaries that might be under 18 (or 25 at the time of your death). I talk about what will happen if at the time of your death you no longer own the particular home, or car, or antique watch that you want to gift to a specific person. We will usually have one lawyer and an articling student or legal assistant sign as witnesses, which means the witnesses will be easy to find decades down the road when one of the witnesses must swear that they witnessed the signing of the will. We keep a copy of the Will in our fireproof safe, or file it at the courthouse, depending on your preference. We also ask questions to rule out potential problems (like hidden offspring, or complex assets, or contingent gifts).
In the end, the document I draft usually looks superficially similar to a well-done "kit" Will. The work is behind the scenes, and well worth the money, in my opinion.
This post is pretty good evidence of how bad people are at drafting their own wills, unfortunately.
Last Will and Testament: DIY or with a lawyer?
Hi:
I'm embarrassed to admit that my wife and I are still without a last Will and Testament. This is something I aim to rectify ASAP and was wondering if people had thoughts on using the online DIY kits, wizards, etc.? Or am I talking crazy and should rush out to a proper lawyer and simply cough up the extra dough?
I am genuinely without a clue and so wanted to be sure the extra money I pay the lawyer for what I think is a fairly cookie cutter type situation is actually money well spent.
If some of you recommend the DIY route, which online service have you used?
Pab
I'm embarrassed to admit that my wife and I are still without a last Will and Testament. This is something I aim to rectify ASAP and was wondering if people had thoughts on using the online DIY kits, wizards, etc.? Or am I talking crazy and should rush out to a proper lawyer and simply cough up the extra dough?
I am genuinely without a clue and so wanted to be sure the extra money I pay the lawyer for what I think is a fairly cookie cutter type situation is actually money well spent.
If some of you recommend the DIY route, which online service have you used?
Pab
41 - 60 of 62 Posts
Excellent post.
I have no spouse or kids , but my sister and I own property, that we all live on ( including her husband and daughter) . The title is 50/50 between her and I , including all costs and payments . If I was no longer on this earth , before leaving , I would want to protect my sister and her daughter , if my sister and husband were to divorce . I would leave him my dirt bike , but not the house 
Is this too complicated for a DIY kit ?
Is this too complicated for a DIY kit ?
I have no spouse or kids , but my sister and I own property, that we all live on ( including her husband and daughter) . The title is 50/50 between her and I , including all costs and payments . If I was no longer on this earth , before leaving , I would want to protect my sister and her daughter , if my sister and husband were to divorce . I would leave him my dirt bike , but not the house
it's a bit complicated because you'd have to leave your interest in the house to your sister; failing sister, to her daughter.
how old is the daughter? it would help a lot if a) she were old enough to be close to the age where she could inherit the house interest outright, should your sister most unfortunately predecease you; or b) be sure to not die, yourself, until said daughter is close to the age of majority.
if the wee girl is still young, perhaps you'd want to leave the BIL in the line of succession? keep in mind that in this scenario, you have died, your sister has died, but the wee girl is still alive & the only person she has left to take care of her is her Dad.
since you like the BIL well enough to bequeath him your motorcycle, wouldn't you want this wee motherless, uncle-less child to live in the house with her father? or at least to have that choice?
Far too risky for a DIY kit. In this case, the will needs to consider - and you need to be clear about - the impact of family law in respect of a matrimonial home occupied by your sister's husband.I have no spouse or kids , but my sister and I own property, that we all live on ( including her husband and daughter) . The title is 50/50 between her and I , including all costs and payments . If I was no longer on this earth , before leaving , I would want to protect my sister and her daughter , if my sister and husband were to divorce . I would leave him my dirt bike , but not the house
Just finished paying $450.00 for for my wife and my wills, Powers of Attorney, and Living Wills. Hec of a deal but our situation is straight forward.
another thing you could do - if you were hell-bent on trying to prevent any interest in your house legacy from going to the brother-in-law - might be something like this:
sell your interest in the house to your sister, then continue on living there as a renter.
the funds you would receive from the sale of house interest would then become the estate that you would bequeath to your sister in outright ownership; failing sister, to her daughter. This inheritance would, presumably, not fall into the communal marital property pool if sister & BIL were to divorce. Unlike the marital home, which would be shared in the event of a marital breakup.
again, anything for the daughter depends upon how old she is. If she is very young & if both you & your sister would insist on departing this earth at an early age, then your legacy would probably be made over to her surviving parent, her father. Your brother-in-law.
ubiquitous, isn't he?
sell your interest in the house to your sister, then continue on living there as a renter.
the funds you would receive from the sale of house interest would then become the estate that you would bequeath to your sister in outright ownership; failing sister, to her daughter. This inheritance would, presumably, not fall into the communal marital property pool if sister & BIL were to divorce. Unlike the marital home, which would be shared in the event of a marital breakup.
again, anything for the daughter depends upon how old she is. If she is very young & if both you & your sister would insist on departing this earth at an early age, then your legacy would probably be made over to her surviving parent, her father. Your brother-in-law.
ubiquitous, isn't he?
$400 is a reasonable price and probably it will include POA (Power of Attorney) as well . Read this articleI recommend a lawyer, but shop around for a reasonably priced one. You should able to get it done for $300-$400 for the pair of you, but I have heard of people paying twice that. It helps to buy and read a DIY wills & estate guide so you will have a better understanding of what questions/information the lawyer will want, and so you will go to him/her prepared.
Far too risky for a DIY kit. In this case, the will needs to consider - and you need to be clear about - the impact of family law in respect of a matrimonial home occupied by your sister's husband.
Good points , just in case lightening strikes twice , I will add the BIL in succession on my will . My wee niece is only three , and her well being ,with a roof over her head, comes first.
My sister and I are on the property title , but my BIL is not . If they divorced , and I was still alive , would it be as simple as selling the property ,and splitting it 50/50 ,or could it get messy ? I pay 50% of everything , and they pay 50% as a married couple .
This is rather hypothetical , as their marriage seems to be working , and none of us are dying yet .
If you truly care about the welfare of the people you leave behind and who are connected to your estate, then do them a HUGE favour and have your wills, POA's etc. completed by a lawyer and reviewed on a periodic basis. You might also consider pre arranging your funeral depending on the circumstances. These are the last good things that you can do for your family/heirs
I have been the executor of two will and have managed the affairs of one. These tasks were made much easier by the existence of wills and POA's. A friend of mine is still dealing with issues pertaining her mother's estate four years after the death. It is exacting a huge toll-emotionally and financially on all family members connected to the estate.
I have been the executor of two will and have managed the affairs of one. These tasks were made much easier by the existence of wills and POA's. A friend of mine is still dealing with issues pertaining her mother's estate four years after the death. It is exacting a huge toll-emotionally and financially on all family members connected to the estate.
100% right.If you truly care about the welfare of the people you leave behind and who are connected to your estate, then do them a HUGE favour and have your wills, POA's etc. completed by a lawyer and reviewed on a periodic basis. You might also consider pre arranging your funeral depending on the circumstances. These are the last good things that you can do for your family/heirs
I deal with Estates as a professional, every time I am shocked to find out how people try to save $400 but their relatives have to spend tens of thousands $ on lawyers, courts, taxes etc. Do your will with a lawyer for your own family.
Some questions came up about this recently and I am wondering if anyone here knows the answers. I had my will written up 3 years ago and for some reason I cannot find the original document. All I can seem to locate are copies. Who normally gets the original(s)? Does the lawyer keep it on their premisis? If acting as executor for someone, does that individual get the original copy as soon as it is prepared?
Reason I ask is someone I know was informed a few years back they were a relative's executor, but they do not have the will. Shouldn't they get a hold of the will now, while the person is still living?
Reason I ask is someone I know was informed a few years back they were a relative's executor, but they do not have the will. Shouldn't they get a hold of the will now, while the person is still living?
For my uncle's will, the lawyer kept the original in his safe. Everyone else got copies.
I can't recall if my mom & aunt received an original while acting as executors.
Yes - it makes sense that the executor has a copy (not necessarily the original) while the person is still living. That way, if there are any questions about intent behind any of the wording - a discussion can be initiated. This would get the info "from the horse's mouth". :biggrin:
That said - my aunt refused to release a copy to my dad so he would have found out the details after her death. He was incapacitated so he asked her to find a new executor. It turned out to be a good plan as he's pre-deceased her by eight years and still counting.
At bare minimum - they should get from the relative what law firm the will was done by and what sort of safe keeping the original is under.
Cheers
I can't recall if my mom & aunt received an original while acting as executors.
Yes - it makes sense that the executor has a copy (not necessarily the original) while the person is still living. That way, if there are any questions about intent behind any of the wording - a discussion can be initiated. This would get the info "from the horse's mouth". :biggrin:
That said - my aunt refused to release a copy to my dad so he would have found out the details after her death. He was incapacitated so he asked her to find a new executor. It turned out to be a good plan as he's pre-deceased her by eight years and still counting.
At bare minimum - they should get from the relative what law firm the will was done by and what sort of safe keeping the original is under.
Cheers
If the Will was done with the help of a lawyer, it's very likely the lawyer kept the original in a fire safe in their office (You should be able to call and confirm this with the law office). In some provinces at least, it's also possible the original was filed with the local superior court.
Thanks for the responses. Does the executor have access to those originals on request? It sounds like they should have the original copy as soon as it has been prepared and the person's wishes be discussed with the executor. It does not sound like that happened in this case, so it would seem they would be left to figure everything out in the dark, without having the will in their possession today.
As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!
As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!
The problem with lawyers doing your will (as I found out), is that they tend to move around between legal firms.As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!
My original will was kept at the lawyer's document repository at the law office where the will was done. When the lawyer left the firm, I got a letter that my will was still
there with the legal firm,, and asked me what I wanted done with it.
I requested that the original be sent to me. Now I have it in my file of "Important papers" and a copy has been given to my executor who is fully aware that I have the original.
AFAIK, for distribution of your estate, the original signed will is required, photocopies will not be accepted.
I suppose if the executor knows which legal firm has the original will, it may be still an option, but better to have an important document with you so that you can make
changes (codicils) to the will without the presence of a lawyer again..only two witnesses. Any changes on the codicil should be filed along with the original signed will.
Yes ... my uncle set his up so that it would not be released to my mom/aunt until they provided proof of his death.Thanks for the responses.
Does the executor have access to those originals on request?
Being aware of the contents ... sure.It sounds like they should have the original copy as soon as it has been prepared and the person's wishes be discussed with the executor. It does not sound like that happened in this case, so it would seem they would be left to figure everything out in the dark, without having the will in their possession today.
As for my will, I found the copies and it says on them that I have the originals. I must have given the original to my executor. I will double check this. How soon I forgot a lot of this stuff!
I would not want to take on the safe keeping of the original, whether it is mine or where I was acting as an executor.
Then too, when applying for the certificate of appointment, it appears only a copy is needed.
http://www.estatelawcanada.ca/how-do-i-get-a-copy-of-someones-will/
http://www.ontario.ca/government/what-do-when-someone-dies
http://www.mrwills.com/legal-services/estate-executors/
http://www.mrwills.com/legal-services/estate-executors/#now-what
Then too ... "Sometimes, an executor can prove that a lawyer held the original will.
If Olivis (i.e. the deceased) had it and it cannot be found, then it is presumed that someone destroyed it."
http://executorschool.com/estate-executors-original-wills-required-for-probate/
If the original is lost and everyone is agreeable, it appears to be a simple process. However, when money is involved as part of an estate, I've seen otherwise reasonable people do strange things.
http://www.justanswer.com/canada-law/73h1c-executor-mom-s-estate-copy.html
As long as there isn't flood, fire or the original is accidentally thrown out or lost - that's fine. I suspect the law office has much better protection in place than I would have at home. As per the link quoted above, not having the original will makes it easier for any who disagree with the will to cause problems.The problem with lawyers doing your will (as I found out), is that they tend to move around between legal firms.
My original will was kept at the lawyer's document repository at the law office where the will was done. When the lawyer left the firm, I got a letter that my will was still there with the legal firm,, and asked me what I wanted done with it.
I requested that the original be sent to me. Now I have it in my file of "Important papers" and a copy has been given to my executor who is fully aware that I have the original. AFAIK, for distribution of your estate, the original signed will is required, photocopies will not be accepted.
It depends on what one want to take on. I personally can't see making so many changes that having the original at hand would outweigh the need for safeguards.I suppose if the executor knows which legal firm has the original will, it may be still an option, but better to have an important document with you so that you can make changes (codicils) to the will without the presence of a lawyer again..only two witnesses. Any changes on the codicil should be filed along with the original signed will.
Cheers
Point taken, but if there was fire (electrical or natural gas explosion), and a catastrophic flood where my house was swept away off it's foundation, I would have to go back to a lawyer and have a new one made up. So far, it hasn't been a problem. The other thing I could do is rent a safety deposit box, but that costs money and I have no other reason to rent one from the banks.As long as there isn't flood, fire or the original is accidentally thrown out or lost - that's fine. I suspect the law office has much better protection in place than I would have at home.
I could however, get a fireproof safe and put all my important documents in it..but then I would have to give the combo to my executor, if I'm no longer around.
It all depends on your circumstances. I have added a couple more beneficiaries to my will through a codicil. So it's good to have the original around.It depends on what one want to take on. I personally can't see making so many changes that having the original at hand would outweigh the need for safeguards.
I suppose if I had a robbery, then lots of things could get stolen including my important papers with my will..but most thieves will prefer the big screen TV.:biggrin:
You must be able to register them in some provinces and perhaps store them.
I Probated my mothers estate. One of the first steps in the process was to contact the BC Gov't and have a search done to determine if she had any will(s) on file. It was an on line search.
I Probated my mothers estate. One of the first steps in the process was to contact the BC Gov't and have a search done to determine if she had any will(s) on file. It was an on line search.
It would depend on surviving the event long enough to remember this needs to be done and as they say, "getting around to it".Point taken, but if there was fire (electrical or natural gas explosion), and a catastrophic flood where my house was swept away off it's foundation, I would have to go back to a lawyer and have a new one made up. So far, it hasn't been a problem.
This also assumes no one mistakes your important papers for useless junk and tosses it before the executor arrives ... probably not a high risk but a risk none the less.
No necessarily ... the combo only matters if you want the safe to stay useful after your death.I could however, get a fireproof safe and put all my important documents in it..but then I would have to give the combo to my executor, if I'm no longer around.
From the "Storage Wars" episodes I've seen - it appears to be time consuming but possible to get into the safes without destroying the contents.
Interesting ... as indicated, YMMV.It all depends on your circumstances. I have added a couple more beneficiaries to my will through a codicil. So it's good to have the original around.
I suppose if I had a robbery, then lots of things could get stolen including my important papers with my will...
Cheers
folks should not amend their lawyer-drawn wills by writing their own codicils imho. If one little detail isn't done right, that will be the end of the codicil & the directions in the original testament will apply.
theoretical question: why would a testator who first left out some potential heirs in the will, then included them later by means of a codicil, ever want those heirs to know what had happened? which they (the heirs) would certainly know as soon as they saw the original will & the later codicil.
also, why are folks looking for witnesses to will signings decades later? here in quebec, witnesses immediately sign affidavits that they were present at the signing of the will. The affidavits from the 2 witnesses are usually bound into the pages of the will itself. Seems to be a more reliable approach.
theoretical question: why would a testator who first left out some potential heirs in the will, then included them later by means of a codicil, ever want those heirs to know what had happened? which they (the heirs) would certainly know as soon as they saw the original will & the later codicil.
also, why are folks looking for witnesses to will signings decades later? here in quebec, witnesses immediately sign affidavits that they were present at the signing of the will. The affidavits from the 2 witnesses are usually bound into the pages of the will itself. Seems to be a more reliable approach.
41 - 60 of 62 Posts
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