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Working hard requires willpower. Your willpower has been trained throughout your life by all the coincidences you've faced and their outcomes.
IMO it should read ...

Your thought processes have been trained throughout your life by all the events you've faced and their outcomes. And yes, sometimes an event may be linked to a coincidence of some type.

I still don't know where you are going with this .... Are you still trying to say "coincidence (instead of luck)" will get you more places than hard work?
 

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It doesn't. You are looking at Mark Zuckerberg as where he is now and what kind of decisions he's taking now.

But you miss the point of where he comes from. The new born Zuckerberg starting with a set of genes, a specific environment and then going through a series of coincidences which shaped him.
Yes, that, an all the opportunities along the way, along with a lot of hard work and good decisions got him where he is today.
 

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Discussion Starter · #164 · (Edited)
Efficiency.
No and yes. He said it himself, it's to reduce the effect of "decision fatigue". Which yes, helps him being more efficient when it comes to important decisions. More efficient in the sense that he kept his willpower high.

Are you still trying to say "coincidence (instead of luck)" will get you more places than hard work?
It's not "coincidences" or "hard work".

"Hard work" is a coincidence, because it's the result of a series of coincidences. Because it depends of your willpower. How much willpower you have depends of the series of events (coincidences) you've went through and their outcome.

As a new born discovers the world, he tries things. He has no intent, no belief. His random action has an outcome. When the outcome is positive, it reinforces that action and creates a belief, whether there's cause-effect or not. So he'll do it again. If it's negative, it'll decrease his willpower and he will stop doing it at some point when the outcome keeps being perceived negatively.

"Experience teaches us no less clearly than reason, that men believe themselves free, simply because they are conscious of their actions, and unconscious of the causes whereby those actions are determined." Baruch Spinoza
 

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No and yes. He said it himself, it's to reduce the effect of "decision fatigue". Which yes, helps him being more efficient when it comes to important decisions.
Apparently the same reason Albert Einstein wore the same thing all the time, one less unimportant thing to think about each day.
It's not "coincidences" or "hard work".

"Hard work" is a coincidence, because it's the result of a series of coincidences. Because it depends of your willpower. How much willpower you have depends of the series of events (coincidences) you've went through and their outcome.
You do known most life events are not coincidences right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #166 ·
Apparently the same reason Albert Einstein wore the same thing all the time, one less unimportant thing to think about each day.
22020


You do known most life events are not coincidences right?
Give me an example of what is not a coincidence? And explain me the chain of cause-effect of that event. And that everything in that chain was controlled and predictable.
 

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Give me an example of what is not a coincidence? And explain me the chain of cause-effect of that event. And that everything in that chain was controlled and predictable.
Coincidences are open to a wide variety of meanings depending on your perspective. Some may think things happen due to a religious influence, others predetermined fate, etc. Best short description for me is ... Coincidences are chance events with underestimated probability.

Examples:
Event -> Went to a motorcycle race in the US and got to talk with my favorite racer.
Coincidence -> I was out riding my bike, stopped for gas and ran into my favorite racer.
 

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It's not "coincidences" or "hard work".
Yes, it's luck and hard work, or coincidences and hard work.


"Hard work" is a coincidence, because it's the result of a series of coincidences. Because it depends of your willpower. How much willpower you have depends of the series of events (coincidences) you've went through and their outcome.
Okay, in that case, no free will, it's all deterministic and there is no point to anything.

I reject that, as I reject the fully deterministic universe. In which case there isn't luck anyway.

If everything is fully formed by the environment (ie luck) then we're completely deterministic and there is no luck or coincidence anyway.
 

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Discussion Starter · #169 ·
Coincidences are open to a wide variety of meanings depending on your perspective. Some may think things happen due to a religious influence, others predetermined fate, etc. Best short description for me is ... Coincidences are chance events with underestimated probability.

Examples:
Event -> Went to a motorcycle race in the US and got to talk with my favorite racer.
Coincidence -> I was out riding my bike, stopped for gas and ran into my favorite racer.
I'm talking about coincidences/events that shape who you are, who you've become.

Like I've wrote before, sure, there's decisions that have cause-effect, as I said, if you jump out of a 3 storey building, you'll die or hurt yourself very badly. It's not a coincidence. But what got you there beforehand? That's a series of coincidences.

For instance, about your event... Why have you met your favorite racer? Because you went to a race. But why did you go to that race? Maybe because you like motorcycle races. But why do you like motorcycle races? And so on.
 

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I'm talking about coincidences/events that shape who you are, who you've become.

Like I've wrote before, sure, there's decisions that have cause-effect, as I said, if you jump out of a 3 storey building, you'll die or hurt yourself very badly. It's not a coincidence. But what got you there beforehand? That's a series of coincidences.

For instance, about your event... Why have you met your favorite racer? Because you went to a race. But why did you go to that race? Maybe because you like motorcycle races. But why do you like motorcycle races? And so on.
But if you want to meet your favourite racer you'd go to a race that they are at, likely one where you can get better access.
You wouldn't go on a solo camping adventure if you wanted to meet them.
 

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I'm talking about coincidences/events that shape who you are, who you've become.

Like I've wrote before, sure, there's decisions that have cause-effect, as I said, if you jump out of a 3 storey building, you'll die or hurt yourself very badly. It's not a coincidence. But what got you there beforehand? That's a series of coincidences.

For instance, about your event... Why have you met your favorite racer? Because you went to a race. But why did you go to that race? Maybe because you like motorcycle races. But why do you like motorcycle races? And so on.
You asked ... "Give me an example of what is not a coincidence?" So I did.
I gather you understand the difference from my perspective now. :)

To follow up, both of those examples (they actually occurred) may have played a role in shaping who I am or what I do in the future from those points in time .... nobody knows. Those events (coincidence or not) are no different from any other past events so knowing "why did you go to that race?" or "why do you like motorcycle races?" are just the same question at different points in time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #172 ·
Okay, in that case, no free will, it's all deterministic and there is no point to anything.

I reject that, as I reject the fully deterministic universe.
It is totally expected that we disagree and that many will disagree, because the free will debate has been going on for centuries.

Though I never said that the universe was deterministic. I just said that you are the product of coincidences.

Galen Strawson
In the free will debate, Strawson holds that there is a fundamental sense in which free will is impossible, whether determinism is true or not. He argues for this position with what he calls his "basic argument", which aims to show that no-one is ever ultimately morally responsible for their actions, and hence that no one has free will in the sense that usually concerns us. In its simplest form, the basic argument runs thus:
  1. You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
  2. To be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are—at least in certain crucial mental respects.
  3. But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
  4. So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
-----

To follow up, both of those examples (they actually occurred) may have played a role in shaping who I am or what I do in the future from those points in time .... nobody knows. Those events (coincidence or not) are no different from any other past events so knowing "why did you go to that race?" or "why do you like motorcycle races?" are just the same question at different points in time.
I was breaking down the series of events that has led you to meet your favorite racer. The trigger to any event will come down to something that you didn't control. The reminder is the illusion of control.

Even if we take a decision that has cause-effect, it doesn't prove free will.

A great reading : The Illusion of Conscious Will by Daniel M. Gilbert.

People typically experience a thought that is consistent with a behavior, and then they observe themselves performing this behavior. As a result, people infer that their thoughts must have caused the observed behavior. However, Wegner has been able to manipulate people's thoughts and behaviors so as to conform to or violate the two requirements for causal inference. Through such work, Wegner has been able to show that people often experience conscious will over behaviors that they have not, in fact, caused – and conversely, that people can be led to experience a lack of will over behaviors they did cause. For instance, priming subjects with information about an effect increases the probability that a person falsely believes is the cause. The implication for such work is that the perception of conscious will (which he says might be more accurately labelled as 'the emotion of authorship') is not tethered to the execution of actual behaviors, but is inferred from various cues through an intricate mental process, authorship processing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #174 ·
You mean one thing I didn't control in the past or I don't have control over anything I do?
You ultimately don't have control over anything.
  1. You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
  2. To be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are—at least in certain crucial mental respects.
  3. But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
  4. So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
 

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You ultimately don't have control over anything.
  1. You do what you do, in any given situation, because of the way you are.
  2. To be ultimately responsible for what you do, you have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are—at least in certain crucial mental respects.
  3. But you cannot be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.
  4. So you cannot be ultimately responsible for what you do.
Ok, so you are basically arguing that it's all luck because we don't have free will.
I reject that premise, as it's not useful for people who want to make their situation better.

I think you do have choice, therefore you have some responsibility.

In any case even if you're not responsible, nobody else is either. So you might as well take responsibility.


This whole "it's all luck" thing is a the mindset of a loser who doesn't want to take responsibility.
 

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Discussion Starter · #176 ·
Ok, so you are basically arguing that it's all luck because we don't have free will.
I reject that premise, as it's not useful for people who want to make their situation better.

I think you do have choice, therefore you have some responsibility.

In any case even if you're not responsible, nobody else is either. So you might as well take responsibility.


This whole "it's all luck" thing is a the mindset of a loser who doesn't want to take responsibility.
You are right that believing there's no free will is not useful.
That doesn't mean that free will exists.

Otherwise, I could also say this : "I reject the idea that humans have no bigger purpose because having no purpose is not useful, therefore humans have a bigger purpose."
Yeah right, tell me what's the bigger purpose of humans with regards to their place in the Universe?

Why do you live? What's your purpose? Your purpose in life is a construct of yours. How would you live day by day if you believe you have no purpose in life? Same thing goes with free will, it's a construct that helps you going through life. Why do you think some people believe in Heaven? They need to anchor themselves to the belief that doing things right will be rewarded, that it has a purpose.

(If you say that your purpose is to raise your kids or to help the society, sure, but what for? What's the ultimate goal? That someday in the far far future, everybody will live in peace and harmony? And then what?)
 

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Discussion Starter · #177 ·
There's many things that the human can't get his mind around it. Free will is one of them.

Does time exists?
Do we live in a world that has no beginning and no end? How is that possible?
Why are we conscious? Is it another construct?
 

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Discussion Starter · #179 ·
You should apply for a job at the philosophy factory @MrBlackhill

I like absurdism myself but it doesn't pay the bills
Honestly I'm just having fun with these debates. Just a hobby to challenge ideas and opinions.
 
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