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And in case you are wondering what the requirements are to BUY a handgun, here they are:

"there is no permit, background check or firearms registration required when buying a handgun from a private individual. A purchaser must be at least 18 years old to buy a gun from a private individual. The minimum age to purchase a handgun from a federally licensed dealer is 21. "

Quote taken from here: Arizona Concealed Carry Gun Laws & CWP | USCCA CCW Reciprocity Map

You will also see in that link that Arizona is a 'stand your ground' state. That means you do not have to 'retreat' if threatened, you can immediately defend yourself. What that translates to is your lawyer tells you to say, 'I was in fear of my life and defended myself', to justify shooting your neighbour over a fence dispute or something. That simple phrase, 'in fear of my life' is legally enough to justify shooting someone. You don't even have to actually be in danger of losing your life, you just have to PERCEIVE yourself as being in danger of losing your life. How can anyone prove you didn't perceive yourself as in danger of losing your life? So if you claim it in a 'stand your ground' state, you will probably be acquited.

In contrast, here in Canada you are expected to first attempt to retreat before you can turn to the attack and use 'reasonabe force' to try and defend yourself. That's much harder for your lawyer trying to defend you to show you did and allows the prosecution much more chance of showing you used 'unreasonable force' AFTER having attempted to retreat and then being forced to defend yourself. Big difference indeed.

The USA really is still the wild west you know.
 

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1. You're mixing gun deaths with gun crime. Good attempt to sideline the argument though.

2. I don't think banning 1500 guns from law abiding owners will substantially reduce the number of illegal guns in circulation. Most of the guns seized in Toronto are illegal, because it's easier to get an illegal gun than a legal one. Most of the guns being banned aren't used in crimes anyway, because they're not well suited, sawed off guns and handguns are much more common.
I'm not mixing up anything. Man, you're just hyper-focused on one aspect of the total gun death figure. You're ignoring Suicide, Accidental deaths, Spousal homicide etc.

Total Number of Gun Deaths is the statistic used to assess public policy. Dead is Dead. If there was 1,000 accidental gun deaths each year then we'd need public policy to address that also.

Gun Culture in Canada through a variety of different prime ministers (chretien, harper, paul martin, mulroney) couldn't get the number of gun deaths down to an acceptable statistic.

I personally think we should go stricter and just copy Japan or Singapore's approach to gun control. Both countries crush us in the statistics for gun deaths.
 

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Discussion Starter #263
I'm not mixing up anything. Man, you're just hyper-focused on one aspect of the total gun death figure. You're ignoring Suicide, Accidental deaths, Spousal homicide etc.

Total Number of Gun Deaths is the statistic used to assess public policy. Dead is Dead. If there was 1,000 accidental gun deaths each year then we'd need public policy to address that also.

Gun Culture in Canada through a variety of different prime ministers (chretien, harper, paul martin, mulroney) couldn't get the number of gun deaths down to an acceptable statistic.

I personally think we should go stricter and just copy Japan or Singapore's approach to gun control. Both countries crush us in the statistics for gun deaths.
Suicide happens irrespective of available methods. Several countries with strict gun laws have high suicide rates.
Accidents? Virtually none.

Spousal homicide? I'd be surprised to hear that legal guns were used. If a spouse has concerns, they seize guns immediately.

I think we should enforce the laws we have.
The problem is a lack of enforcement.
 

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Suicide happens irrespective of available methods. Several countries with strict gun laws have high suicide rates.
Accidents? Virtually none.

Spousal homicide? I'd be surprised to hear that legal guns were used. If a spouse has concerns, they seize guns immediately.
Increased access to guns increases suicide and thoughts of suicide. Harvard and a bunch of leading Universities all found that. Guns and suicide: A fatal link

You had a variety of governments to try it your way. If the Harper or Mulroney governments succeeded in reducing Gun deaths, I'd be okay with the rules we had 2 weeks ago. But I didn't see the needle moved and it's not likely Andrew Scheer could have reduced it either. . . Due to the failures of the previous governments
, a different approach is needed.
 

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You "bought" a concealed carry permit? So what...I can "buy" a driver's license or a passport in another name with my picture on it but that doesn't make it legal.
It was legal for me to use in Arizona if I so chose. No picture, my name on it, just a form filled out by hand.

Oh... the Cretin gov didn't succeed in reducing gun deaths either even though they made criminals out of most gun owners. I like how you skipped that silly period,..your liberal is showing lol.
 

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My point here is that in a clash of opinions, majority rule is not automatically fair. In fact it is very like to be discriminatory and possibly unfair in the extreme. The mere fact that the majority is in support of the rules does not make them fair. And unfair and unreasonable rules can be a huge problem. I'm not saying that you should not be in favour of, or advocate for gun control measures - only that you should be careful about the logic you use to support them.
Your point is valid for human rights concerns(gender, religious freedom, freedom from discrimination) where Tyranny against the majority is a concern. It's not applicable to types of Gun Models.

For simpler concerns that don't involve human rights, the Democratic majority should be used.
 

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I think they probably "know" it too.

It is an inconvenient truth that doesn't fit with their desire to have guns regardless, so they don't admit they know it.
 

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[QUOTE="Eder, post: 2088258, member: 32020
Oh... the Cretin gov didn't succeed in reducing gun deaths either even though they made criminals out of most gun owners. I like how you skipped that silly period,..your liberal is showing lol.
[/QUOTE]

Chretien had pretty liberal gun laws. So I wouldn't use him as an example of strict gun control.

In Canada, it's far too easy to buy a gun. Simple test anyone can pass, basic background check, fees, and you got yourself a gun. . . There's no requirement that owning a gun is needed to be part of your occupation. You can be unemployed or working at Mcdonald's and still be given a firearms license as long as you pass the test and background check and pay the fees.
 

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The registry was introduced by the Liberal government of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien in 1993 to keep Canadians safe from crazy hunters murdering everyone. How is making us all criminals for non compliance a pretty liberal gun law?
Thank God Harper booted it after making the removal an election promise...this time around hopefully we can remove this nanny state gov as well...
 

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From vote perspective I believe that this can only help the Liberals or be neutral at best. I do not think this will even be a blip of an issue on the next election. It is hardly an issue now with the vast majority of voters. Other, far more important and pressing issues to concern themselves with. Given the current contenders for the Conservative leadership it looks highly likely that Trudeau will get a majority next time out.
 

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Discussion Starter #273
Increased access to guns increases suicide and thoughts of suicide. Harvard and a bunch of leading Universities all found that. Guns and suicide: A fatal link

You had a variety of governments to try it your way. If the Harper or Mulroney governments succeeded in reducing Gun deaths, I'd be okay with the rules we had 2 weeks ago. But I didn't see the needle moved and it's not likely Andrew Scheer could have reduced it either. . . Due to the failures of the previous governments
, a different approach is needed.
1. Suicide is a mental health issue, not a gun issue.

2. Harper introduced mandatory sentences, which the courts threw out. There is a systematic failure in the Canadian justice system to enforce the law. Trudeau is letting murders out because he can't be bothered to appoint judges.
 

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The registry was introduced by the Liberal government of Prime Minister Jean Chrétien in 1993 to keep Canadians safe from crazy hunters murdering everyone. How is making us all criminals for non compliance a pretty liberal gun law?
Thank God Harper booted it after making the removal an election promise...this time around hopefully we can remove this nanny state gov as well...
A registry is mickey mouse compared to a Ban. That's why Chretien can't be considered to be tough on guns. It does little to stop Crimes of Passion like Spousal homicide or Suicide.

Bans are more effective.
 

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2. Harper introduced mandatory sentences, which the courts threw out. There is a systematic failure in the Canadian justice system to enforce the law. Trudeau is letting murders out because he can't be bothered to appoint judges.
Harper, whom I voted for previously before Introduced mandatory minimums and they were in place for awhile before it was struck down. While It was in place, we didn't see an improvement in the Stats. . . And besides every political party has to abide by the Courts and Charter. Not just the conservative party. It's a reality for every political party. To suggest a political party comes into power and ignores the law & courts is Absurd.

Harper did some good things I liked(e.g. Introduced TFSAs) but he was terrible on Gun Deaths.
 

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Your point is valid for human rights concerns(gender, religious freedom, freedom from discrimination)
[ ... ]
For simpler concerns that don't involve human rights, the Democratic majority should be used.
If you haven't already, have a gander at Jay Nathwani's opinion piece:

The effects of this style of governing can be pernicious: if people feel that they are being punished simply because they lack political clout, they will trust their fellow citizens less.
Some of what he argues is the normal hogwash. But he does point out the odd way they came up with their list of weapons, pointing out that "centre-fire semi-autos" would have been a more logical class of weapons to specify. A point I have made also. But the final analysis is that the government is antagonizing a class of folks who feel like the rug is being pulled out from their hobby/passtime for no good reason. I have no doubt that some folks really do feel that way -- there are those in my family who I know do feel that way.

I do agree that this is not a human rights issue: it is not about who you are or who you're related to or spend time with. It will affect almost noone's livelihood in any way. It affects only what some people own, and circumscribes what can only be a hobby for those affected.
 

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Discussion Starter #277
A registry is mickey mouse compared to a Ban. That's why Chretien can't be considered to be tough on guns. It does little to stop Crimes of Passion like Spousal homicide or Suicide.

Bans are more effective.
Suicide hasn't been a crime for decades.
It's 2020, not 1971.
 

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Discussion Starter #278
Harper, whom I voted for previously before Introduced mandatory minimums and they were in place for awhile before it was struck down. While It was in place, we didn't see an improvement in the Stats. . . And besides every political party has to abide by the Courts and Charter. Not just the conservative party. It's a reality for every political party. To suggest a political party comes into power and ignores the law & courts is Absurd.

Harper did some good things I liked(e.g. Introduced TFSAs) but he was terrible on Gun Deaths.
He tried to put dangerous criminals in jails.
The courts don't want to do this.

The problem isn't the laws, it's the lack of enforcement, and a failure to protect people.
The vast majority of crime is committed by repeat offenders.

If you're carrying an illegal, loaded handgun in Toronto, I don't see why you should ever be let out of jail.
 
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