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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I figure we should have a separate thread discussing EVs as opposed to cluttering up the Tesla thread.

Interesting development that Ottawa is going to support the Ford Oakville's plant to produce EVs. Given that the Edge will stop production in 3 years time, they will have the capacity and time to retool. Ottawa says governments offering $500M to bring electric vehicle production to Ford’s Oakville plant

Couche-Tard is going to start installing EV charging stations in Canada and in the US (Circle-K). That will provide a few more options to recharge for long distance trips. Couche-Tard to add electric car charging stations to Circle K locations in Canada, U.S.
 

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I don't see why "retooling" is such a huge deal.
They make the Escape, and Plug in Escape in Louisville on the same line. It's not a big deal to throw in electric motors in a car instead of an engine and transmission.

Half a billion dollars of tax money is a big handout, even as a Ford shareholder I'm opposed to these handouts.

The thing is, if electric cars make sense, they will get built. Ford has a lot of hybrids, and they're priced competitively with the gas vehicles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Well, there are a number of reasons why there are costs to retool:
1. The Ford Edge probably has a different chassis/platform than whatever EV is going to be produced in the future, which means you may have to have new equipment and move things around;
2. Current factory doesn't manufacture battery packs so that's new;
3. Building sequence may be different which is related to point 1; and
4. Employee training as now we're talking about battery installation, electric motors at the wheels instead of an engine block, and software installs.

Edit: An old article from 2009, but relevant considering it discusses Ford's cost to convert from SUV to EV in Michigan. Ford invests $550 million to retool Michigan plant for Focus, all-electric car
 

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Well, there are a number of reasons why there are costs to retool:
1. The Ford Edge probably has a different chassis/platform than whatever EV is going to be produced in the future, which means you may have to have new equipment and move things around;
2. Current factory doesn't manufacture battery packs so that's new;
3. Building sequence may be different which is related to point 1; and
4. Employee training as now we're talking about battery installation, electric motors at the wheels instead of an engine block, and software installs.

Edit: An old article from 2009, but relevant considering it discusses Ford's cost to convert from SUV to EV in Michigan. Ford invests $550 million to retool Michigan plant for Focus, all-electric car
Assembly plants don't build parts. Battery packs don't get built at assembly plants.
Employee training is a minimal issue in an auto plant.
They're constantly trained for each new job.

I don't think the government should spend half a billion dollars subsidizing Ford.
 

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There are two points here:
1-does it cost money to retool a plant for a new vehicle?
2-should governments subsidize this activity?

1 is obviously yes. Whether OEMs get handouts or not, they incur these costs. 2 is open to debate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Assembly plants don't build parts. Battery packs don't get built at assembly plants.
Employee training is a minimal issue in an auto plant.
They're constantly trained for each new job.

I don't think the government should spend half a billion dollars subsidizing Ford.
Sigh, from the article.
Ford Motor Co. and its main union are in the midst of labour negotiations ahead of a deadline midnight Monday night, and a push for a retooling of the plant for mass production of EVs and their high-tech batteries is central to the talks.

Maybe read before commenting?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
2-should governments subsidize this activity?
Any different from subsidizing EV purchases?

Personally, I don't care for government subsidizing companies, but this is probably part of the government's infrastructure/greening plans.
 

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There are two points here:
1-does it cost money to retool a plant for a new vehicle?
2-should governments subsidize this activity?

1 is obviously yes. Whether OEMs get handouts or not, they incur these costs. 2 is open to debate.
I agree, but #2 is the problem.
There is no justification for the government to seize my money and simply give it to a foreign multi billion dollar company.

In 2018 Corporate income tax was 48Billion.
Instead of giving Ford $500 million, they could have simply given every single corporation a 1% tax cut. (not to their tax rate, just lower the corporate taxes by 1%)
Then the other hundreds of millions they give to company B, C, D etc, they could simply, fairly, equally and openly slash corporate welfate, and make Canada more tax competative, without even losing money.

\
 

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Sigh, from the article.
Ford Motor Co. and its main union are in the midst of labour negotiations ahead of a deadline midnight Monday night, and a push for a retooling of the plant for mass production of EVs and their high-tech batteries is central to the talks.

Maybe read before commenting?
Sorry some Ottawa reporter is likely less informed on Fords manufacturing plans than the CEO.

The CEO said during earnings calls that there is no advantage to bringing battery production in house.
"The supply chain has ramped up since Elon [Musk] built his Gigafactory, and so there’s plenty there that does not warrant us to migrate our capital into owning our own factory,” he said. “There’s no advantage in the ownership in terms of cost or sourcing.”


Plus LGChem is one of leading battery manufacturers, it's cheaper to pay them for allocated capacity than to try and develop a competing product. There is a reason Ford & GM have been collaborating on some items such as transmissions, R&D is really darn expensive.


So I doubt the news article. Such a dramatic change in direction doesn't make sense and I think it was likely an error on the writers part.
 

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A key component in the Unifor ongoing negotiations is assigning future work to Canadian assembly plants, and EV vehicles are big part of the discussions.

If Canada wants to retain the big assembly plants and Tier II supplier plants and subsequent tax revenues, they will have to compete with US subsidies.

Wages, benefits, pensions, seniority rights, are all taking a back seat to the number one issue........retaining work for Canadian plants.

I was hopeful but not expecting a reinstatement of COLA to our auto pensions, but the union appears to have EV production as the main priority.
 

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The re-tooling of a big auto assembly plant is an enormous undertaking that involves hundreds of electricians, robotic technicians, engineers and designers.

Unless someone has experience working in a large automotive assembly plant they have no idea what would be involved.

In many ways it would be easier to build a new plant dedicated to building EV vehicles.
 

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The re-tooling of a big auto assembly plant is an enormous undertaking that involves hundreds of electricians, robotic technicians, engineers and designers.

Unless someone has experience working in a large automotive assembly plant they have no idea what would be involved.

In many ways it would be easier to build a new plant dedicated to building EV vehicles.
Only if it's a really outdated plant like the former Crown Vic plant in St Thomas.

More modern plants are designed to facilitate adjustments.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Sorry some Ottawa reporter is likely less informed on Fords manufacturing plans than the CEO.

The CEO said during earnings calls that there is no advantage to bringing battery production in house.
"The supply chain has ramped up since Elon [Musk] built his Gigafactory, and so there’s plenty there that does not warrant us to migrate our capital into owning our own factory,” he said. “There’s no advantage in the ownership in terms of cost or sourcing.”


Plus LGChem is one of leading battery manufacturers, it's cheaper to pay them for allocated capacity than to try and develop a competing product. There is a reason Ford & GM have been collaborating on some items such as transmissions, R&D is really darn expensive.


So I doubt the news article. Such a dramatic change in direction doesn't make sense and I think it was likely an error on the writers part.
So that was the outgoing CEO.

What can change in the meantime is the government's desire to be a player in the EV battery playing field: Mining gives Canada a competitive advantage in electric vehicle market

If Ford is provided enough incentive, it's a possibility, but these are all ongoing negotiations.
 

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So that was the outgoing CEO.

What can change in the meantime is the government's desire to be a player in the EV battery playing field: Mining gives Canada a competitive advantage in electric vehicle market

If Ford is provided enough incentive, it's a possibility, but these are all ongoing negotiations.
Sure, LG & GM have a partnership, it's quite likely LG & Ford will make a partnership.

I really don't see it being a worthwhile use of tax money to bribe Ford to get into a non-core business.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Sure, LG & GM have a partnership, it's quite likely LG & Ford will make a partnership.

I really don't see it being a worthwhile use of tax money to bribe Ford to get into a non-core business.
Ford has a partnership with VW for engineering battery packs: Ford, Volkswagen Finalize Partnership to Build EV, Delivery Vans, and Pickup Truck
Right now they are looking at SK Innovations for the battery cells.

Keep in mind when we say produce batteries for EVs, that can mean assembling the power packs and not necessarily the cells themselves.
 

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Ford has a partnership with VW for engineering battery packs: Ford, Volkswagen Finalize Partnership to Build EV, Delivery Vans, and Pickup Truck
Right now they are looking at SK Innovations for the battery cells.

Keep in mind when we say produce batteries for EVs, that can mean assembling the power packs and not necessarily the cells themselves.
Yes, and they're currently using LG but might also work with SK
The Ford Mustang Mach-E will be powered by LG Chem battery cells.

Keep in mind when we say "batteries" that means "battery cells", not assemblies which hold battery cells.
When I say "we" I mean Automotive Engineers.
 

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Enough of the unelected United Nations & their Great Reset. Part of their power agenda is to kill the world economy & start up with zero CO2.
 

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A mega deal by Unifor and Ford to bring EV production to Canada.

On to Chrysler and GM now.....
 

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Electric vehicles have fewer parts and require fewer vehicles.

Moving electric is bad for jobs, good for pretty much everything else, but when you reduce the number of people to do the work by 30%, I don't see how it's a net win.

That being said, reducing workers by 30% should drop the cost significantly as well. I'd love more cheap electric vehicles.
 
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