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Also of note......every transaction of bitcoins requires verification by human "miners". How would one scale that up to VISA transaction levels ?

There is no viable solution that doesn't make it more complicated than it already is......and that is too complicated for most people to bother with.
The blockchain trilemma is to develop something decentralized, scalable and secure at the same time. Bitcoin is very secure but it is not scalable for small fast transactions. Ethereum seems to be very popular because it has struck a difficult balance of the 3. Ethereum 2.0 will be more scalable.

Ethereum 2.0 will basically be 64 blockchains in parallel (current ethereum becomes the first chain of 64) This will all be transparent to the common user. Do you really know or care how the visa or debit network works at a technical level, or do you just trust it because everyone uses it everyday?

While it's still too complicated for most people it's like the internet was in the '90s. Too much hassle for mainstream use but it just needs some user interface improvements, better explanations and better PR. There are many 3rd parties developing user friendly interfaces just like developers did for the internet

Apparently it is possible to verify whether a bitcoin is real or fake by tracing every transaction it has ever been involved in. Over time, this is going to take more and more time and energy to do as the blockchain gets longer with use, and the coins get broken down into smaller fractions. Is this done for every transaction? And if it isn't, what is there to stop someone from making duplicate or fake bitcoins?
I sync'd the entire ethereum blockchain on my 2011 laptop in a few days. My CPU was the limitation. I can't say for bitcoin but ethereum has options to just archive the old transactions you rarely need. There are different clients programmed in different ways to do this and the code is constantly being improved/refined for efficiency

If you want to verify an older transaction you probably need more time/resources but for the majority of nodes it makes more sense to archive the older transactions. Ethereum 2 will split this up to 64 ways again. Most nodes won't run all 64 chains but I suppose some super nodes could
 

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Who would conduct dispute resolution on the Ethereum protocol ? Who would reverse transactions ? How long would transactions take to verify ? Who absorbs losses due to fraud ? How does a customer pay recurring charges ?
Ethereum foundation

This already happened in the past. Cryptocurrency protocols can be changed or updated with "forks". You can look up for example the ethereum classic "hard fork" which was implemented to reverse fraudulent transactions. You can still buy/trade "ethereum classic" today, but the vast majority "voted with their feet" and followed with the new ethereum fork.

Sometimes the network even fragments unintentionally and eventually sync's back together when software agrees by consensus which fork is the "real" chain. This is kind of the computers reaching consensus by algorithm. The users can also vote for changes to the protocol by signing with ethereum address, which can even be weighted by participation or other algorithm

There are already patents to vote for elections by blockchain. This would make elections far more transparent, efficient and valid as it is no different from any other trust based transaction. Obviously the user interface and public knowledge is not quite ready yet. But it's painfully obvious to anyone who understands the technology compared to hand counting ballots

The fact that ethereum survived a hard fork and is also able to improve/scale into ethereum 2 shows this is very possible
 

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Visa is also shifting to USDC now (ethereum network) So I guess we're all in on this ponzi scheme!

There is some speculation that the 12 Mar crash was in part from whales dumping. But everything crashed at the same time including gold so.. I guess gold is also a pump and dump ponzi scheme?

Visa merchant fees are baked into every transaction nowadays. Those free flights aren't free
 
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So that means that Visa will tack on fees for USDC transfers right?
The Forbes article says Visa is integrating with USDC with the help of Circle Internet Financial.. visa doesn't own USDC

Many transfer services have already integrated with or use crypto blockchain networks, transparent to the user. This gives the legacy intermediaries the benefits of blockchain tech, while charging the end user the status quo.

Paypal is another recent service to add crypto integration (pointless really, but they will become irrelevant otherwise)

I could create another math-based technology with the same characteristics (or a parallel concept) as Bitcoin. Then I can encourage a whole bunch of people to use it and popularize it on social media.

Anyone can do this. This is the core concern I have. Somebody started with nothing (something which has ZERO value), and convinced other people to trade money for it. If I can create the same kind of thing tomorrow, what makes BTC/ETC fundamentally valuable?
You can tokenize anything using ethereum network/protocols by design. Real estate is already being tokenized in Europe

Fiat is no different. Canadian Tire can create Canadian Tire money. People in Afghanistan thought Canadian Tire money was real and so it was. Anyone can print paper money. Anyone can create crypto currency. Why is the USD considered the petro dollar rather than CAD? You can use USD almost anywhere because people recognize it as valuable and liquid. Bitcoin has more volume than some fiat currencies btw

Try spending Canadian Tire money or monopoly money somewhere. It's the same thing
 

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What happens if the marketing push behind it stops? What happens if some large initial holders (pump & dump artists) are fuelling the whole campaign, and stop fuelling it?

Will it continue to have value to the broad public? We're only at 3 years so far.
The irony is that ethereum and other crypto currencies are notoriously poor at PR and marketing. It has been mostly nerds who are painfully awkward at communicating or marketing. If you dig into it you will see just how little information is actively spread (besides the scams)

We are only now starting to see people with communication skills who can follow the development and explain it in the form of podcasts, blogs etc. It's covered hilariously inaccurate by the mainstream media (it basically tells boomers what they want to hear so that they listen)
 

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I completely agree. It's trivially simple to create a new crypto coin. I saw a count in an article that there are now over 2000 different coins in existence. Maybe crypto coin # 3624 created in the year 2022 will turn out to be the really amazing one that pushes all the right buttons.

The ones circulating today could become totally worthless and obsoleted. Easy come, easy go.
The vast majority are ethereum. Some new ones could be better but they will likely never get the same momentum to make it worthwhile. It's easy to design a better internet protocol today but good luck getting the world to switch now

People create tokens for anything. We could create CMF tokens for participation like reddit has done. Some people created tokens to give to their followers. Again you can create monopoly money or Cdn Tire money all you want..
 

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I thought the mining process involved verifying transactions and was told this was wrong. Can someone explain this? If the mining is not the verification then who does the verification? And what is the mining process?
It is for bitcoin

Ethereum currently uses mining as well but it began to transition away from mining on Dec 1. Mining requires a lot of electricity and expensive hardware. It cannot scale to the speed of visa

Ethereum 2 addresses the scalability problem with parallel blockchains. It is being phased in over the next few years. Coincidence that Visa took note?
 

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DAI is a ERC-20 token (ethereum) that is crypto-collateralized on the ethereum blockchain using smart contracts to track the value of USD.

I can exchange USD for DAI on coinbase for a 0.5% fee. I can then transfer it to my ethereum wallet for the cost of an ethereum transaction (0.25c USD today for a slow 5 min transaction) I can then lend DAI to compound to receive cDAI. The fee is again the cost of 1 ethereum transaction to cDAI and 1 tx back to DAI in the future.

So for a 1 time fee of 0.5% and let's say $1 USD in tx fees I am earning about 3% APY. No CDIC obviously but smart contracts can also insure assets
 

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Keep in mind that all previous blocks have already been verified by consensus with the miners, so they only need to check the specific block(s) containing the inputs needed for the transaction.
Exactly. I have the recent ethereum blockchain sync'd on my SSD. The old transactions get archived into a "freezer" database on my slower HDD as they are rarely needed anymore

It's the initial sync that takes days to process. You need to be sync'd to process/mine/validate etc. There are now clever ways to speed up the initial sync, but once sync'd it's just a trickle of data

The blockchain does constantly continue to grow. For this reason I think ethereum's approach will make more sense as time goes on and adoption grows
 
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However, the sum value of Bitcoin is not representative of the underlying value of the function it performs, in my opinion, especially if you discount the 'money printing' reason for owning it. Scarcity doesn't mean value on its own.
What is the underlying value of gold or the function it performs? We measure the value of an oz of gold in USD. So how do you measure the value of a USD?

The price of 1 BTC in USD is a psychological hurdle. The USD measuring stick changes in length by the day lol. You could also say 1 Satoshi is 0.0002 USD and now it looks cheap eh. I would think stock investors get this concept as it is like 1 stock. You can split unit prices like stocks and the value stays the same. The integer is irrelevant...

Bitcoin really shows how little people understand value when all of the arguments against it apply to fiat as well.
 

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Guess what: your examples are backed by corporations which you can trust to be around tomorrow to exchange the token for a service. And that is precisely why they have value. If I were to print my own "get a free drink" paper, it would be worthless unless I at least had a lemonade stand. And even then...
That's exactly why decentralized finance exists - to be more transparent, permissionless, trustless, and interoperable

On the night of Nov. 8, 2016, there was a surprise announcement on Indian television. In a live telecast to the nation, Prime Minister Narendra Modi declared that the country's two highest-denomination currency notes (Rs 1,000 and Rs 500) would be withdrawn immediately from the market
Why would you chose to trust a government or corporation? Air Canada just devalued its Aeroplan miles again
 

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I think dismissing gold and central banks is important to the argument for Bitcoin. However, I would humbly suggest it is far less likely that nations give up sovereign control of their currency than it is that Bitcoin goes to $1 million.
I'm not actually a fan of bitcoin or gold at all

I prefer to hold things that produce a yield for its underlying function. Ethereum is a foundation for a decentralized global computer. I followed the development of the internet and smartphones and just how long it took the general population to appreciate. A scalable decentralized global network is a very big deal imo

I don't dismiss that gold or bitcoin have a function as a store of value but I believe people are vastly under appreciating how blockchain technology will change every trust based transaction. Wire transfers verified manually and recounting ballots by hand just won't cut it anymore

Blockchain gives transparency to trust based transactions instead of trusting some intermediary. It is such a different concept many can't seem to wrap their head around it yet. Many dismissed this internet and smartphones, I remember!

Bitcoin on the other hand has only been valuable to humans (general public) for 3 years. It depends entirely on modern computation, an NSA-created algorithm, and the internet. The algorithms underlying it are quite arbitrary and can easily be replaced with imitations, copycats, and new variants.
I agree that it does not replace gold. I don't buy into bitcoin but I see it as the "gold of cryptocurrency" I don't like owning much gold either. I see both as problematic stores of value

I disagree however that bitcoin or any popular cryptocurrency can be easily replaced with imitations and new variants. This is like saying I can make a better internet protocol (true) and everyone will immediately stitch to the superior protocol (not true at all!)

People have created more advance crypto networks but everyone doesn't abandon the protocol that has so much already built on it. Volume of a currency is important (see USD vs other fiats)
 

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Visit the bitcoin discussion websites and all they talk about is HODL (hold on for dear life) to gain the vast riches when people are "forced" to buy their bitcoins to use. This is the whole concept upon which the scarcity value is based. Only 21,000,000 bitcoins and the owners will become rich from consumer demand for their bitcoins.
Yes the speculators turned me off from crypto for many years. Those are the wrong places to get information about blockchains but unfortunately the signal to noise ratio is very high.

You have to dig deeper into the developer discussions (which is not really on forums or reddit anymore it's mostly on apps like discord and telegraph now) and then you realize the real discussions are not about speculation and scams

Nerds aren't very good at communicating or PR. Due to this void in communication to the common folk, scam artists and others create a lot of noise for those trying to learn

I doubt that companies will put themselves into that position and will simply create their own tokens, as companies are already doing.

VISA and other companies have filed all kinds of US patents on their own specific use plans. They want to usurp the blockchain technology for their exclusive use, so they can profit from it.

I would say if you want to invest in digital technology.......buy VISA shares. These mammoth companies are going to flatten coin speculators.
Sags I have posted a Forbes article in this thread and started a thread about how Visa recently made an agreement to integrate USDC (ethereum blockchain)

More and more institutions are adopting ethereum blockchain solutions. You can create your own internet protocol if you want but what good is that if everyone else is on a different network?

Blockchain technology makes intermediaries like Visa redundant. I don't think they will ever disappear entirely (we have email and we can also still make a letter by snail mail after all)
 

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Care to give a brief explanation on how your statement above is true?
If you give me your ethereum address I could send you ETH or DAI (USD) for the cost of what is called gas. The tx fee is based on the market rate rather than a fixed %. I could send you a million DAI for .25c gas or I could send you 5 DAI ($5 USD) for the same market fee, not a % fee. You can slide your limit for gas fee lower based on the network demand (cheaper at night) and you can slide it higher for a faster transaction

With Visa, Paypal, Square, real estate agents, banks etc they charge a % fee for their intermediary services. With blockchain the intermediary is provided by a mathematical algorithm that can be audited in advance and transactions are transparent for anyone to verify. Why do you think Visa, Paypal, Square etc are all scrambling to integrate with blockchain networks before people realize that they can send currency directly peer-to-peer?
 

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USDC does not pay to use the Visa network. Visa pays to use the ethereum network lol

Everyone pays merchant fees to use Visa. It's very clever (at least for Visa) Merchants in countries that are more economically inclined (or challenged) already offer 3% cash discounts etc. They could offer the same discount for ETH or USDC..

Also credit is a good point. DeFi is still very new but yes you can already borrow/lend at better rates on DeFi (again cut out the intermediary) I already lend DAI
 

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So, and correct me if I'm wrong here ... If someone uses a USDC Visa the same thing occurs except instead of using the transfer of the currency at the POS location (say CDN $) it would validate the USDC funds (on Visa's connection to the ethereum network) and then accept/deny the transaction right?
There already exist Visa cards that let you spend crypto on a Visa POS terminal. Yes someone profits off the currency exchange. These cards don't make much sense to me and they defeat the purpose entirely (maybe a temporary need until merchants realize customers want to pay in crypto)

Maybe Visa wants to make USDC Visa cards to pay/borrow USDC credit. Ok so you can pay 19% interest when you could get much lower rates on DeFi, pay 4% merchant fees and who know how much in exchange/mystical spot rate slippage etc. Sounds like something for boomers who don't understand USDC

I assume that Visa also wants to use the ethereum network as a backend transparent to the end user. Money transfer services already do this (they use crypto to transfer funds transparent to the user who overpays to use crypto networks because they don't know how to themselves)

The last time I asked TD Canada to wire USD to TD Bank USA they make me listen to and agree to a disclaimer that they may use 3rd party services to transfer the funds and that they cannot be held liable for 3rd party actions etc etc (wonder what the 3rd party service is and why do they need it to transfer to themselves?!)
 

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But in regards to your statement that "Blockchain technology makes intermediaries like Visa redundant." I think you're way off. Credit cards will be around for a long long time, blockchain won't change that.
Sure. The post office is still around even though we have email. I don't think my grandma ever opened an email account. I don't think she ever used the internet. We have online banking but bank branches never really went away either

I imagine most millennials and younger will migrate away from Visa. Boomers are probably beyond the age of significant change like my grandma was for the internet, email and online banking. For everything else there's mastercard, er, ethereum
 

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That's because there is still use for them, post offices and bank branches. Until someone can successfully make crypto mainstream it'll remain where it is ... not useful for the general public.
It's like the internet was in the '90s. The foundation is there but it's not fast enough, it isn't user friendly yet so you have to know what you're doing. It's just for nerds trying to make it work

And yet everyone uses the internet today! You don't need to use the internet but you live in a different world today if you don't. Disruptions this big take decades. Give it 5-10 years
 

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I keep saying Bitcoin because I am talking about the trading prices of BTC and ETH. They are basically interchangeable securities.
No. They are networks. You have no concept of what ethereum is yet. For a very simple primer - imagine CMF running on millions of computers instead of a few central servers, and imagine being able to sign your posts with a cryptographic signature. Not a big deal for CMF but decentralization and secure identities is very disruptive. And that's only the surface

There are people out there who want to hold BTC and ETH in their portfolio as a store of wealth. I am questioning this idea. No doubt that Ethereum has real uses, but the coin trading price (ETH at $586 a coin) could still be a pump & dump scam, even if the tech is fundamentally useful. They are different issues.
Many crypto developers questions this. It's no different than people watching HGTV and then trying to make easy money by flipping houses in Toronto when they have no real knowledge of real estate. But just like everyone says Toronto real estate will crash, the truth is Toronto is the wall street of Canada. Ethereum has become the wall street of crypto.

The story of crypto coins, why you need them, is currently being blasted across social media. It targets young people and is pushed by some very shady personalities (like John McAfee) so I get a bad feeling about the market price of BTC and ETH.
Like anything else. There are scams everywhere especially where people think there is easy money. Crypto is an easy target for scammer now because people don't understand it but want to get involved. John McAfee has nothing to do with crypto development he's just using his notoriety to shill
 

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Well, as compared to the million other coins. If you had to guess which one will last (if any will), which would it be?
This is like asking which stock to buy here without at least doing some of your own legwork

There's a lot of noise if you don't know who to listen to and who to ignore like anything else. For a start I'd recommend some podcasts like Unchained (ex Forbes journalist) Bankless, zero knowledge etc. The developers are all busy developing but they are the real source of information at this point imo. Mostly anyone trying to push something is a shill (no different than all the "advisors" and "experts" in the fiat world really)

Bitcoin price seems to react to the ethereum development. The 2017 craze was when everyone started to launch blockchains and decentralized apps on ethereum. People even trade bitcoin on ethereum now. Most of the altcoins you refer to are ethereum. Saying alt coins are threat to ethereum is like saying monopoly money is a threat to capitalism because anyone can create fake money. Do some homework.

Polkadot was supposed to be the ethereum killer. It improved on the ethereum concept. The problem is that so many things have already been developed for ethereum that switching to something better at this point would be like getting everyone to switch to a new internet instead of just upgrading it. Ethereum has been planning to upgrade to be scalable for years and just launched the first phase of that upgrade.

It's like anything else. The older generation say they prefer their established ways until they realize everyone has switched
 
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