[TomB16]

Covid vaccine has a unique risk/benefit ratio. Not all vaccines are the same.

Also, the CDC is recommending the vaccine for all children, including those who have had the virus. It is difficult to think of a thought process that leads to this recommendation which is not based on corrupt reasons. Perhaps someone is aware of one? I would appreciate this info.

 

[Spudd]

Covid vaccine has a unique risk/benefit ratio. Not all vaccines are the same.

Also, the CDC is recommending the vaccine for all children, including those who have had the virus. It is difficult to think of a thought process that leads to this recommendation which is not based on corrupt reasons. Perhaps someone is aware of one? I would appreciate this info.

A simple google search would have answered this for you (I googled "why is covid vaccine recommended for children who had the virus"):

6 Things to Know about COVID-19 Vaccination for Children | CDC

Information for parents and caregivers about COVID-19 vaccination of children ages 5 years and older.

www.cdc.gov

.

 

[TomB16]

Your link is to the recommendation I mentioned. I'm looking for data. You know... Statistics that support the decision.

 

[Spudd]

Your link is to the recommendation I mentioned. I'm looking for data. You know... Statistics that support the decision.

You asked for the thought process. That is listed in the link I provided. They say: Emerging evidence indicates that people can get added protection by getting vaccinated after they have been infected with the virus that causes COVID-19.

Here is the evidence they linked to:

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

The relevant section says this:

More recent observational cohort studies including over 700,000 health system users in Israel and over 11,000 healthcare workers in India reported that history of prior infection provided greater protection from subsequent infection than vaccination alone, but overall risk of infection was lowest among those that were vaccinated following infection during periods of Delta predominance [93, 94]. In the systematic review described above, a pooled analysis across seven studies showed a modest but significant increase in protection from infection when previously infected individuals were vaccinated [79].

 

[TomB16]

I appreciate your response, Spudd.

While there are numbers in your citation, they revolve around a plea for trust and are not results of any sort of study.

The only germane numbers I have seen are a really small group studied by Pfizer. There could be more so citations would be appreciated.

N = 1678 (3 doses, age 0.5 to 5y)

Cases = 3 (with vax), 7 (with placebo)

Notice, this isn't deaths. These are cases.

Cite: Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Demonstrates Strong Immune Response, High Efficacy and Favorable Safety in Children 6 Months to Under 5 Years of Age Following Third Dose | Pfizer

They seem to be suggesting this proves 80.3% efficacy against all strains but I don't see any evidence of an antibody study to determine how many of them had natural immunity prior to the test. Surely, by now, a whole lot of them will have had COVID exposure.

"This descriptive analysis was based on 10 symptomatic COVID-19 cases identified from seven days after the third dose and accrued as of April 29, 2022. The trial protocol specifies a formal analysis will be performed when at least 21 cases have accrued from seven days after the third dose. Final vaccine efficacy data will be shared once available."

So, the trial is not done, as far as I know.

I have zero interest in pleas to trust the FDA/CDC/Phizer. Zero. They are going to have to be more forthcoming with statistics. If they were more trustworthy, they would spend less energy asking us to trust them and more energy sharing actual data and risk analysis.

 

[damian13ster]

Also, why Delta? They say that even antibodies for original omicron don't work on newer omicron.
So decision to provide vaccines for toddlers is based on whether vaccine designed for alpha works for delta?
Why not check whether vaccine for alpha works for newer omicron in order to make the decision?

 

[james4beach]

... and where is his kid picking it up from? Other kids? At school? At ... ???

I don't know where the kid caught it. But I'd imagine that many children are asymptomatic so they probably pass it around when at school, or when playing.

Back when public PCR testing existed, the provinces were showing test positivity rates and it was insanely high among school-aged children. Maybe it's because there isn't much vaccination? I really don't know. But kids pass around all bugs easily, think of the regular cold & flu.

 

[TomB16]

Is anyone here old enough to remember the ball pits that McDonalds used to have? Children would climb into a giant box of balls and immediately put the balls into their mouths. Nobody seemed to think anything of it. It was like every child in town sharing a lollipop.

I hate to reveal my level of germophobia but that blew my mind, even back then when the vast majority of people thought viral infections came from catching a chill in a slightly cool breeze. I know people today who still think that.

 

[sags]

Yea......back before humans started performing "gain of function" experiments on deadly viruses.

The most recent investigation by SAGO into the Wuhan lab leak theory revealed nothing but that the Chinese are doing everything possible to hide the facts.

The US government funded these experiments in China and the events at the Winnipeg lab involving Chinese scientists and students were never made public.

Scraps of information have been rooted out by journalists, but there are many unanswered questions, such as why scientists with close ties to the Chinese military were working in the top level lab in Winnipeg, and transporting "samples" of deadly viruses back to a lab in China, controlled by the Chinese military.

All the experts say it is vitally important to discover the origin of the covid virus, how it spread into animals, and then into humans.

What are all these governments afraid of revealing to the public ?

 

[MrMatt]

Is anyone here old enough to remember the ball pits that McDonalds used to have? Children would climb into a giant box of balls and immediately put the balls into their mouths. Nobody seemed to think anything of it. It was like every child in town sharing a lollipop.

They still exist at other places. Kinda gross, but lots of fun.
Pre-COVID they had the tubular slides, though at the one Local McDonalds they had to shut it down because kids would routinely go down it in overflowing diapers.
Nothing like a feces covered tube slide. The staff weren't able to easily clean it either. We stopped going to that location.

I hate to reveal my level of germophobia but that blew my mind, even back then when the vast majority of people thought viral infections came from catching a chill in a slightly cool breeze. I know people today who still think that.

People are stupid. I've literally heard discussions with nurses how hand sanitizer cleans better than soap and water (hint, it doesn't)

 

[Beaver101]

Yea......back before humans started performing "gain of function" experiments on deadly viruses.

The most recent investigation by SAGO into the Wuhan lab leak theory revealed nothing but that the Chinese are doing everything possible to hide the facts.

The US government funded these experiments in China and the events at the Winnipeg lab involving Chinese scientists and students were never made public.

Scraps of information have been rooted out by journalists, but there are many unanswered questions, such as why scientists with close ties to the Chinese military were working in the top level lab in Winnipeg, and transporting "samples" of deadly viruses back to a lab in China, controlled by the Chinese military.

All the experts say it is vitally important to discover the origin of the covid virus, how it spread into animals, and then into humans.

What are all these governments afraid of revealing to the public ?

... great question!

 

[Beaver101]

They still exist at other places. Kinda gross, but lots of fun.
...

... regret reading your posts whilst having breakfast. EEEEEEWWWWWW!!!!!

 

[TomB16]

You asked for the thought process. That is listed in the link I provided. They say: Emerging evidence indicates that people can get added protection by getting vaccinated after they have been infected with the virus that causes COVID-19.

This is a good point that I read but didn't respond to, yesterday. I look forward to learning the data behind this new evidence.

Thanks, Spudd.

 

[Beaver101]

I need to figure out how to contract Omicron 4 or 5 by fall. Any ideas?

... your wish comes true - Omi 4 & 5 are here.

If you want to contract them asap, fly over to the UK NOW before it hops over to the USA and then to Canada.

This May Be the COVID Variant Scientists Are Dreading

This May Be the COVID Variant Scientists Are Dreading

David Axe, Mon. June 20, 2022

COVID-19 cases are increasing again in the United Kingdom, potentially signaling a future surge in infections in the United States and other countries.

A pair of new subvariants of the dominant Omicron variant—BA.4 and BA.5—appear to be driving the uptick in cases in the U.K. Worryingly, these subvariants seem to partially dodge antibodies from past infection or vaccination, making them more transmissible than other forms of the SARS-CoV-2 virus.

There are also some suggestions that the new subvariants have evolved to target the lungs—unlike Omicron, which usually resulted in a less dangerous infection of the upper respiratory tract.

But there’s good news amid the bad. While cases are going up in the U.K., hospitalizations and deaths are increasing more slowly or even declining so far. “This could mean higher transmissible variants, BA.4 or 5, are in play, [and] these variants are much less severe,” Edwin Michael, an epidemiologist at the Center for Global Health Infectious Disease Research at the University of South Florida, told The Daily Beast.

The trends could change, of course, but the decrease in deaths is an encouraging sign that, 31 months into the pandemic, all that immunity we’ve built up–at the cost of half a billion infections and tens of billions of dollars’ worth of vaccines—is still mostly holding.

As far as COVID goes, things were really looking up in the U.K. until recently. COVID cases steadily declined from their recent peak of 89,000 daily new infections in mid-March. Deaths from the March wave peaked a month later at around 330 a day.

By early June cases and deaths were near their pandemic lows. Then came BA.4 and BA.5. The grandchildren of the basic Omicron variant that first appeared in the fall of 2021, BA.4 and BA.5 both feature a trio of major mutations to their spike protein, the part of the virus that helps it to grab onto and infect our cells.

Eric Bortz, a University of Alaska-Anchorage virologist and public-health expert, described BA.4 and BA.5 as “immunologically distinct sublineages.” In other words, they interact with our antibodies in surprising new ways.
The European Center for Disease Prevention and Control—the European Union’s answer to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention—labeled BA.4 and BA.5 “variants of concerns” back in mid-May. Two weeks later the two new subvariants began the gradual process of overtaking older forms of Omicron in the U.K. That’s when cases began increasing again.

It doesn’t help that the U.K. like most countries—China is a big exception—has lifted almost all restrictions on schools, businesses, crowds and travel. Those restrictions helped to keep down cases, but were broadly unpopular and came at a high economic cost.

“There’s a disconnect between the actuality of how infections are happening… and how people are deciding not to take very many precautions,” John Swartzberg, a professor emeritus of infectious diseases and vaccinology at the University of California-Berkeley's School of Public Health, told The Daily Beast. He described it as “COVID fatigue… 100 percent of the world’s population must have it by now.”

The combination of a fully reopened economy and new COVID subvariants had an immediate effect. The U.K. Health Security Agency registered 62,228 new infections in the week ending June 10, a 70 percent uptick over the previous week. COVID hospitalizations grew more slowly over the same period, spiking 30 percent to 4,421.

COVID fatalities actually dropped, however—sliding 10 percent to 283. Deaths tend to lag infections by several weeks, of course, so it should come as no surprise if the death rate flattens or bumps up later this month or early next month.
But it’s possible it won’t. Yes, BA.4 and BA.5 are more transmissible, owing to that mutated spike protein. But that doesn’t mean they’re going to kill a lot of people. Despite their unusual qualities, it could be that BA.4 and BA.5 aren’t actually more dangerous than previous subvariants.

Bortz sketched out one possibility, that BA.4 and BA.5 are “immune-evasive enough to infect, but generally not evasive enough to counteract acquired immunity from vaccines and/or prior infection.”

Of course, immunity varies from community to community, country to country. The U.K.’s 67 million people have, for their part, built up pretty serious immunity over the past two-and-a-half years.

Tens of millions of U.K. residents have natural antibodies from past infection. 87 percent of the population is fully vaccinated. 68 percent is boosted. All those antibodies might not prevent breakthrough infections, but they do tend to prevent serious breakthrough infections.

How bad the current surge in cases gets depends to a great extent on the durability of those antibodies. Immunity, whether from past infection or vaccines, tends to wane over time. But how fast it wanes, and to what effect, is unpredictable.

It’s possible widespread immunity holds and the swelling BA.4 and BA.5 wave in the U.K. crests in a few weeks without making a whole lot more people sick—or killing them. That’s the best-case scenario given the lack of political will, and public support, for a new round of restrictions. “If higher cases would not lead to significant disease or deaths, then we may be able to live with this virus,” Michael said.

The worst-case scenario is that BA.4 and BA.5 prove more capable of evading our antibodies than experts currently anticipate. Keep an eye on the hospitalization stats. If COVID hospitalizations start increasing in proportion to the growth in cases, it’s a sign the new sublineages are dodging our hard-won immunity.
In that case, a big spike in deaths is sure to follow.

That could be a big red flag for the Americas. COVID variants tend to travel from east to west, globally. New variants and subvariants tend to appear in the United States a few weeks after becoming dominant in the U.K. At present, BA.4 and BA.5 account for just a fifth of new cases in the U.S. Expect that proportion to increase.

The problem for Americans is that they’re much less protected than Britons. Yes, Americans have a lot of antibodies from past infection, but they’re also a lot less likely to be vaccinated—and even less likely to be boosted. Just 67 percent of Americans are fully vaxxed. A little over a third of the U.S. population has gotten a booster.

So if BA.4 and BA.5 end up causing a surge in deaths in the U.K., they’re likely to inflict an even greater death toll on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. “We’re sort of in this zone now, betwixt and between,” Swartzberg said. “It’s unclear which way things are going to go.”

 

[sags]

Cripes I hope not.

But UK has been a very reliable source for information on what is coming for us.

It sounds like it is more transmissible, evades immunity, targets the lungs, and they "hope" it doesn't cause a higher death rate......but it might.

 

[james4beach]

I think we're experiencing some education and progress in public understanding of infectious disease spread. There are now more people thinking about details that we never thought of before.

Masks for air travel is a good example. Whether they are mandatory or not, I will be wearing a mask in planes & airports for the rest of my life. It's just common sense. Many Asian travellers figured this out long ago, but I didn't understand until the pandemic.

But there are other areas where our society is still being incredibly stupid. For example, going to work if one is sick and has symptoms (runny nose, sore throat, cough, etc). People STILL go to work when sick. Unfortunately our society sends the wrong message here. Even hospital workers are encouraged -- by government! -- to come into work even when symptomatic. And people socialize when symptomatic as well.

Those are some very bad habits that we haven't yet eradicated from our society.

 

[Beaver101]

^ I don't think these very bad habits will ever be eradicated from our society ... just look at simple hand-washings. I wouldn't be surprised people still don't wash their hands after using the toilet. That's why they're called "habits" ... part of their DNA.

 

[Spudd]

I think we're experiencing some education and progress in public understanding of infectious disease spread. There are now more people thinking about details that we never thought of before.

Masks for air travel is a good example. Whether they are mandatory or not, I will be wearing a mask in planes & airports for the rest of my life. It's just common sense. Many Asian travellers figured this out long ago, but I didn't understand until the pandemic.

But there are other areas where our society is still being incredibly stupid. For example, going to work if one is sick and has symptoms (runny nose, sore throat, cough, etc). People STILL go to work when sick. Unfortunately our society sends the wrong message here. Even hospital workers are encouraged -- by government! -- to come into work even when symptomatic. And people socialize when symptomatic as well.

Those are some very bad habits that we haven't yet eradicated from our society.

100%. I've gotten sick on planes numerous times, it just makes sense to mask up. But before this, I never considered it as an option.

I had a part-time job doing tax prep this spring. My co-worker I shared an office with came to work one day feeling under the weather but not overly sick. She wore her N95 mask all day, so I was OK with it. That was a Wednesday. On Thursdays I didn't work. I got to work on Friday and learned she had called in sick on Thursday. Then she showed up sounding like death warmed over and not wearing a mask. I asked my boss if I could leave because I wasn't comfortable with the situation, and he moved me to an office far away from her, which I was fine with. The following week, my other co-worker who also shared an office with the sick one came down with covid. I feel 99% sure the sick co-worker had covid but showed up to the office anyway. Was very glad I had spoken up and asked to move.

Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.

 

[Beaver101]

100%. I've gotten sick on planes numerous times, it just makes sense to mask up. But before this, I never considered it as an option.

I had a part-time job doing tax prep this spring. My co-worker I shared an office with came to work one day feeling under the weather but not overly sick. She wore her N95 mask all day, so I was OK with it. That was a Wednesday. On Thursdays I didn't work. I got to work on Friday and learned she had called in sick on Thursday. Then she showed up sounding like death warmed over and not wearing a mask. I asked my boss if I could leave because I wasn't comfortable with the situation, and he moved me to an office far away from her, which I was fine with. The following week, my other co-worker who also shared an office with the sick one came down with covid. I feel 99% sure the sick co-worker had covid but showed up to the office anyway. Was very glad I had spoken up and asked to move.

... excuse my interrupting here.

Re bolded part above - let's face it some people just don't give a sh1t about others regardless. Particularly those with MY-rights, MY-this-and-that ... the ME, MYSELF, and I ONLY as I OWN THE WORLD. I get it, selfishness is ingrained in the DNA. But the worst ones are those who downplay (and continue to do so) as Covid as "it's just a flu" or the mentality of "what pandemic?" One can't help but wonder what's their actual "intent" here? Don't think it's a good one for sure.

Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.

. .. no excuse. First, where's her mask if she's ALREADY sick. Plus can't she WAH (aka work from home SICK)? Or is she concerned that her employer don't trust her with logging in the "hours" SICK at home so she has to show to prove to her employer she's SICK as a dog and yet working ... spreading the germs to others.

 

[james4beach]

Trouble is with hourly paid work, if you don't go to work, you don't get paid. I'm sure that's why she came even though she felt terrible.

Sounds like you dodged a bullet there. Yeah definitely, people come to the office when sick.

If they really have to come in when sick, I'd hope they at least wear a mask as it would go a long way to protect others.

I walked into a bank in Toronto a few months ago, during one of their COVID surges. One employee (in his office, with the door open) was coughing and sounded just awful. I couldn't believe this guy would come into work like this and expose everyone else! Not a single mask on any of the employees.