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I’ll respectfully disagree. There’s a lot more extra curricular going on in Ontario schools this year vs. Spring.

and if they knew from the start, I don’t think they ever declared that the vaccine would end the pandemic. I just think your insistence that govt is constantly lying is a bit of a stretch.
Then why do they still insist it will end the pandemic? It has been known for months that vaccines barely decrease transmission of the virus, yet as recently as last month Trudeau still claimed they will end the pandemic.

Perhaps they didn't lie for the first couple of months due to lack of knowledge (although not admitting lack of knowledge is also not being honest), but they sure as hell are lying now.

He doesn't insist government is constantly lying either. Government is constantly lying about vaccines.
 

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Then why do they still insist it will end the pandemic? It has been known for months that vaccines barely decrease transmission of the virus, yet as recently as last month Trudeau still claimed they will end the pandemic.

Perhaps they didn't lie for the first couple of months due to lack of knowledge (although not admitting lack of knowledge is also not being honest), but they sure as hell are lying now.

He doesn't insist government is constantly lying either. Government is constantly lying about vaccines.
Can I see a quote? Not that I don’t believe you…..but saying “the vaccine will end the pandemic” is very different from saying “the vaccine will help end the pandemic”.

what does the government gain by saying “it will end the pandemic” if in fact they are saying it?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,023 ·
I think it was Jason Kenney who said the pandemic was over.
 
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Can I see a quote? Not that I don’t believe you…..but saying “the vaccine will end the pandemic” is very different from saying “the vaccine will help end the pandemic”.

what does the government gain by saying “it will end the pandemic” if in fact they are saying it?
2:20-3:35



“Shame on you, Erin O’Toole,” Trudeau said after he was heckled by protesters. “You need to condemn those people, you need to correct them, you need to use your voice and actually add it to those of us who understand that vaccinations are the way through this pandemic.”


 

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I’ll respectfully disagree. There’s a lot more extra curricular going on in Ontario schools this year vs. Spring.

and if they knew from the start, I don’t think they ever declared that the vaccine would end the pandemic. I just think your insistence that govt is constantly lying is a bit of a stretch.
Yes, in November, but not in Sept/Oct.

I think they were very clear that vaccination to the herd immunity level of 70-80% would end the pandemic. But it's simply not true.
Also they said they'd have vaccines for every Canadian who wanted them by September, it's the second half of November and they just approved vaccines for kids.

They've been feeding lies and half truths.
Sure they're not as ridiculous as Dr Tam saying we don't need masks, but the constant falsehoods and misleading statements are frustrating.
 

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Can I see a quote? Not that I don’t believe you…..but saying “the vaccine will end the pandemic” is very different from saying “the vaccine will help end the pandemic”.

what does the government gain by saying “it will end the pandemic” if in fact they are saying it?
By claiming vaccination will end this, it gives them (in their eyes) the "moral authority" to force a potentially lethal medical procedure on people.
Why? Because they're power tripping narcissists' who don't respect human rights.

Beyond that I don't know, some have suggested that they don't trust us to make "the right decision", so they'll lie and try to trick/force us into it. They simply don't respect that we have our own opinions and that human rights are a thing to consider.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,028 ·
Not on the planet Jason Kenney lives on.
 

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Well du-uh, we know this.
The problem is our "leaders" told us vaccination would stop it, but of course they lied.

They're still sticking to that story, even doubling down, even though they know it's a lie.
I don't think it was a lie, when they first thought this. Earlier it did look like vaccination could end this.

The problem is that we now have evidence to the contrary. Vaccination is not enough, on its own. It does not prevent COVID from circulating, even at extremely high vaccination levels, like Denmark's

I am disappointed that the government is doubling down but I think it's because public policy (government) is not as sharp as scientists on the cutting edge. There is a time delay.

This is why scientists need to be in charge of driving public health policy during an emergency like this.
 

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This is why scientists need to be in charge of driving public health policy during an emergency like this.
I disagree for a few points.

Firstly which scientists? Who picks them?
Is it going to be an incompetent person like Dr Tam, who seemed like the perfect person to lead Canadas response?

Secondly they are experts only in their area.

The role of elected officials isn't to be experts, they're not.
Their role is to balance the various factors as our representatives and move forward with the policies.

Scientists and researchers roles are to write up policy papers and advise politiicans to make the decisions.

Exactly what "scientist" will be an expert in all the areas impacted by COVID19?
There is the pandemic issues, childrens educational issues, supply chain issues, economic impacts and the list goes on.

There is literally no "scientist" who is an expert in all those areas, if you convened a round table, who decides?
Even if there was such an expert, they might be wrong. How do we hold them accountable?
In the case of an appointee over one tiny subset of this crisis, the PM should have fired Dr Tam.

If the government leaders decide to abdicate their responsibility to the experts, that's fine anyway, they just have to answer to the public.

Finally I think public health experts have been driving policy, which is why we have such a mishmash of different ideas and inconsistent messaging. Different health units have different policies and different guidance etc. You might not be aware of this, but in Ontario most of the initial legal authority came from the Chief Medical officers, not politicians. (That being said the CMO's are simply unelected politicians IMO)
 

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I don't think it was a lie, when they first thought this. Earlier it did look like vaccination could end this.

The problem is that we now have evidence to the contrary. Vaccination is not enough, on its own. It does not prevent COVID from circulating, even at extremely high vaccination levels, like Denmark's

I am disappointed that the government is doubling down but I think it's because public policy (government) is not as sharp as scientists on the cutting edge. There is a time delay.

This is why scientists need to be in charge of driving public health policy during an emergency like this.
I think delta changed the game on whether vaccines could end the pandemic. It is so infectious that even with 90% reduction in spread, the reproductive number without restrictions is high enough to ensure everyone will be exposed and infected eventually. Now is just a game of managing health care system capacity and developing better treatments.
 

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I disagree for a few points.

Firstly which scientists? Who picks them?
Is it going to be an incompetent person like Dr Tam, who seemed like the perfect person to lead Canadas response?

Secondly they are experts only in their area.

The role of elected officials isn't to be experts, they're not.
Their role is to balance the various factors as our representatives and move forward with the policies.

Scientists and researchers roles are to write up policy papers and advise politiicans to make the decisions.

Exactly what "scientist" will be an expert in all the areas impacted by COVID19?
There is the pandemic issues, childrens educational issues, supply chain issues, economic impacts and the list goes on.

There is literally no "scientist" who is an expert in all those areas, if you convened a round table, who decides?
Even if there was such an expert, they might be wrong. How do we hold them accountable?
In the case of an appointee over one tiny subset of this crisis, the PM should have fired Dr Tam.

If the government leaders decide to abdicate their responsibility to the experts, that's fine anyway, they just have to answer to the public.

Finally I think public health experts have been driving policy, which is why we have such a mishmash of different ideas and inconsistent messaging. Different health units have different policies and different guidance etc. You might not be aware of this, but in Ontario most of the initial legal authority came from the Chief Medical officers, not politicians. (That being said the CMO's are simply unelected politicians IMO)
... great summary of your favourite subject: politics. And great confirmation that politics influences everything in life, including science and medicine. And so what's the solution from all of this? None, as in your summary.
 

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Too many sheep.
Not enough wolves.
... when the planet is occupied by wolves only, guess what happens? Annihilation as if you think the wolves would sit quietly and behave themselves. No better than savages.

I'm guessing the MaryJanes must be super cheap to obtain these days.
 

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Too many sheep.
Not enough wolves.
... when the planet is occupied by only wolves, guess what happens? Annihilation if you think the wolves would sit quietly and behave themselves. No better than savages.

I'm guessing the MaryJanes must be super cheap to obtain these days.
 

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... great summary of your favourite subject: politics. And great confirmation that politics influences everything in life, including science and medicine. And so what's the solution from all of this? None, as in your summary.
Well my "solution" is as little government as possible, and strong respect for individual human rights.
Because you know... Liberalism.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7,037 ·
I think you mean Libertariansim that denies there is systemic racism.
 

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I think you mean Libertariansim that denies there is systemic racism.
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on liberty, consent of the governed and equality before the law.[1][2][3] Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), democracy, secularism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion and a market economy.

I'm not denying that there is systemic racism, you're doing that.
I've actually pointed out that Trudeau is implementing and supporting systemic racism, you deny it.

Again to be clear what I mean by systemic racism.
Institutional racism, also known as systemic racism, is a term that refers to a form of racism that is embedded in the laws and regulations of a society or an organization. It manifests as discrimination in areas such as criminal justice, employment, housing, health care, education, and political representation.[1]


I also support many aspects of Libertarianism, particularly the strong emphasis on human rights, don't you?
 

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I think delta changed the game on whether vaccines could end the pandemic. It is so infectious that even with 90% reduction in spread, the reproductive number without restrictions is high enough to ensure everyone will be exposed and infected eventually. Now is just a game of managing health care system capacity and developing better treatments.
Yes, things changed along the way.

More treatments are coming (for example the new Pfizer anti-virals) but it will take months before they're on the shelves in hospitals. So governments need to buy more time.
 
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