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We want them to fully vaccinate with 2 shots. They don't want any shots at all. I am willing to compromise at 1 shot if it gets the deal done.

1 shot should still keep most of them out of our hospitals.
The point about J&J is that it is being billed as a one and done vaccine, which it practically isn't. So assuming that you can convince people to take the J&J, because it is only one shot, but then turn around and say, BTW to get full protection, you need to take a second one in 2 months, you are doing a bait-and-switch. The problem is that hold-outs aren't likely paying attention to this change, and will feel tricked and less trusting if they are told this after their initial shot.

Sure one shot of anything is better than nothing, but given the lower effectiveness, you'll see some get covid and then blame the vaccine.
 

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The point about J&J is that it is being billed as a one and done vaccine, which it practically isn't. So assuming that you can convince people to take the J&J, because it is only one shot, but then turn around and say, BTW to get full protection, you need to take a second one in 2 months, you are doing a bait-and-switch. The problem is that hold-outs aren't likely paying attention to this change, and will feel tricked and less trusting if they are told this after their initial shot.

Sure one shot of anything is better than nothing, but given the lower effectiveness, you'll see some get covid and then blame the vaccine.
Better to get tricked after their shot then not to take one at all. I don't really care anymore how they feel. I just want them out of the hospitals. The lower effectiveness, for the vast majority will simply be the difference between having almost asymptomatic symptoms (2 doses) as opposed to being horribly sick at home (1 dose). Either way they are not in our hospitals.

As I have said many times, when I point out the need to vaccinate everyone age 50 and older, is that the younger ages should vaccinate as well, but for the vast majority of the younger ones, if they don't they really just punish themselves with a couple weeks of horrible sickness at home and maybe a lifetime of breathing disability or other long covid issues, etc. But at least they take all the downside for their bad decision. With the older group, we all take the downside for it. One dose of any vaccine will probably change the ICU trip to the 2 weeks at home very, very, very sick, in the worse case scenario for the vast majority of them.

I have no problem with that result. I just don't think a very small number of citizens should be allowed to put a provinces entire health care system in jeopardy. They just can't be given that right.
 

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Better to get tricked after their shot then not to take one at all. I don't really care anymore how they feel. I just want them out of the hospitals. The lower effectiveness, for the vast majority will simply be the difference between having almost asymptomatic symptoms (2 doses) as opposed to being horribly sick at home (1 dose). Either way they are not in our hospitals.
Kind of, but there are still going to be some that will have to make it to the ICUs. Obviously not everyone in the ICU is non-vaccinated, just 90+% of them.

Like I said, these are the types of people that have little trust in the system, and tricking them is not a good thing for the long-term. Particularly since there are going to be boosters required as variants develop. Given the worldwide immunization rate, I'm sure we're going to see a number of variants over the next few years.

That being said, it doesn't mean we have to necessarily lockdown or expect that ICUs get filled all the time, it's that we're going to have to accept that we have to look at the long-term solutions/strategies.
 

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Kind of, but there are still going to be some that will have to make it to the ICUs. Obviously not everyone in the ICU is non-vaccinated, just 90+% of them.
Of course. My objective is to see the health care system in a state of full operation. That means an ICU department able to take on more patients, and more importantly, a resumption of regular health care operations such as regular surgeries, etc. My objective does not include babysitting or looking after the health of unvaccinated people. Once the healthcare system is put in a safe position, the unvaccinated can choose anything they want.

I can't say for sure that 1 shot of JNJ will solve that but the 1st shot takes the "novel" out of this virus and I definitely believe that for the vast majority of people that would be enough to keep them at home...but of course not everyone.

On an aside, I heard today that Alberta is observing a larger then normal number of "readmissions" to the hospital. So it looks like the Delta is putting out a lot more "long covid" then the other viruses did, for the same level of illness. That is not good. People really should vaccinate. It is so hard to fathom these peoples views, but anyway, hopefully we can get to the point where we can leave their problems in their hands. Right now their problems are still too much our problems. That definitely cannot continue.
 

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On an aside, I heard today that Alberta is observing a larger then normal number of "readmissions" to the hospital. So it looks like the Delta is putting out a lot more "long covid" then the other viruses did, for the same level of illness. That is not good. People really should vaccinate. It is so hard to fathom these peoples views, but anyway, hopefully we can get to the point where we can leave their problems in their hands. Right now their problems are still too much our problems. That definitely cannot continue.
I saw that... most people just consider the deaths, but forget about short and long-term effects that require follow-up treatment. That means, aside from the original ICU resources, we're talking about using regular hospital care resources.
 

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I saw a post that made a bit of sense today.
"The same people that spent a year fighting this pandemic, without a vaccine, were heroes. Now we're firing them for exercising their rights."

You should not be regulating peoples bodies, it should be their choice, even if it's the wrong choice.

My concern is that they're politicizing human rights. Standing up for human rights is now clearly a "right wing" thing, which is scary, but not suprising.
The greatest evils in recent history were left wingers who ignored human rights.
 

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I saw a post that made a bit of sense today.
"The same people that spent a year fighting this pandemic, without a vaccine, were heroes. Now we're firing them for exercising their rights."

You should not be regulating peoples bodies, it should be their choice, even if it's the wrong choice.

My concern is that they're politicizing human rights. Standing up for human rights is now clearly a "right wing" thing, which is scary, but not suprising.
The greatest evils in recent history were left wingers who ignored human rights.
When these people go to court you will find that the public interest overrides individual rights in these circumstances. Individual rights are not absolutes. We have a social contract. With rights comes social responsibility. If you don't want to be vaccinated that your choice . That doesn't me there aren't consequences. . I have rights as well and that means keeping the unvaccinated away from my life and health.
 

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When these people go to court you will find that the public interest overrides individual rights in these circumstances. Individual rights are not absolutes. We have a social contract. With rights comes social responsibility. If you don't want to be vaccinated that your choice . That doesn't me there aren't consequences. . I have rights as well and that means keeping the unvaccinated away from my life and health.
... keeping away from the "un-vaccinateds" on the assumption that they have a higher transmissibility with a heavier viral load once severely infected. Plus the fact that they''ll clutter the ICUs which could have been easily prevented with a simple jab or 2. This then deprives others from using those resources, never mind about putting the treating healthcare workers + other patients at risk as well.

The "un-vaccinateds (not due to medical exemptions which are expected to be few)" should really ask themselves a simple question "what is so special about me, the unvaccinated" versus the "what is so special about me, the vaccinated"?
 

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When these people go to court you will find that the public interest overrides individual rights in these circumstances. Individual rights are not absolutes. We have a social contract. With rights comes social responsibility. If you don't want to be vaccinated that your choice . That doesn't me there aren't consequences. . I have rights as well and that means keeping the unvaccinated away from my life and health.
But part of that social contract is that those demands be reasonable.

You can't discriminate based on on religious beliefs, which in my opinion should carry far lower standing than a persons bodily autonomy.
Remember, the right to autonomy over ones body extends to the killing of other people. There is no way the minor public benefit of vaccination equates to literal murder.
 

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But part of that social contract is that those demands be reasonable.

You can't discriminate based on on religious beliefs, which in my opinion should carry far lower standing than a persons bodily autonomy.
Remember, the right to autonomy over ones body extends to the killing of other people. There is no way the minor public benefit of vaccination equates to literal murder.
They are more then reasonable. In Alberta the ICUs are near capacity and 91% of the people in ICUs are unvaccinated. Other treatments and surgeries are being cancelled and postponed because unvaccinated people with covid are shutting down the healthcare system. The unvaccinated are creating a public health crisis. I have zero sympathy for your position. The public good is much more important right now than the ignorant and selfish position of the unvaccinated. Enough is enough.
 

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That is solely your opinion. Fact is that ICUs are overwhelmingly occupied by obese people.
Obesity is much bigger predictor of hospitalizations than vaccination status is.

The problem is that human rights can't be subjective. Every single moment in history, in which human rights were subjective, in which segregation was allowed, ended in tragedy. There is no exception. If you put a threshold on human's right as 'opinion is enough to ignore them' then not a single act of genocide, segregation, violation, or racism can ever be condemned. After all, they were all committed based on someone's opinion that segregation, genocide, racism, violence, and violation of human rights is better for society at a cost of human rights of individual/distinct group
 

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Wish that was the case before I got that garbage and went through the suffering
Alberta 6.2 million vaccinations. Reported negative side effects. are at 1600 and almost all are minor from sore arms andswelling to nausea, headaches or allergic reactions. Almost all of those were over in a day or two. Cost benefit analysis is clearly onthe side of vaccinations. Yes Moderna can cause heart inflammation in younger people and the Swedes have reacted in kind. I can name an NHL hockey player who found the hard way that covid can cause even more serious heart problems. Yourside effects is no reason to junk vaccines. Alberta's ICUs are almost at capacity if the unvaccinated. Can you image what shape it would be in if the 74% of the vaccinated hadn't been vaccinated
 

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Alberta 6.2 million vaccinations. Reported negative side effects. are at 1600 and almost all are minor from sore arms andswelling to nausea, headaches or allergic reactions. Almost all of those were over in a day or two. Cost benefit analysis is clearly onthe side of vaccinations. Yes Moderna can cause heart inflammation in younger people and the Swedes have reacted in kind. I can name an NHL hockey player who found the hard way that covid can cause even more serious heart problems. Yourside effects is no reason to junk vaccines. Alberta's ICUs are almost at capacity if the unvaccinated. Can you image what shape it would be in if the 74% of the vaccinated hadn't been vaccinated
There are countries in which 74% of people are unvaccinated. You can look at their shape and you have an answer to your question
In Alberta more people died from vaccine than from COVID among under 20 year olds.
There is plenty of reasons to junk vaccines - although for vast majority of people they are still a good choice.
 

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Alberta 6.2 million vaccinations. Reported negative side effects. are at 1600 and almost all are minor from sore arms andswelling to nausea, headaches or allergic reactions. Almost all of those were over in a day or two. Cost benefit analysis is clearly onthe side of vaccinations. Yes Moderna can cause heart inflammation in younger people and the Swedes have reacted in kind. I can name an NHL hockey player who found the hard way that covid can cause even more serious heart problems. Yourside effects is no reason to junk vaccines. Alberta's ICUs are almost at capacity if the unvaccinated. Can you image what shape it would be in if the 74% of the vaccinated hadn't been vaccinated
Okay, add in a few deaths and I won't pick apart your argument. I agree, it's clear that for most people they should get vaccinated, while for some it's an undue risk.
The only person who should make that decision is the patient.

My position remains, "My body my choice", even to the extent that it means the death of someone else (that's the pro abortion position)
 

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Okay, add in a few deaths and I won't pick apart your argument. I agree, it's clear that for most people they should get vaccinated, while for some it's an undue risk.
The only person who should make that decision is the patient.

My position remains, "My body my choice", even to the extent that it means the death of someone else (that's the pro abortion position)
you are right my only point is stay away from me and others who have made a decision respecting the health of myself and others. Holmes said your rights end when you scream fire in a movie theatre. In Alberta your rights should end once the ICU s are plugged with the selfish unvaccinated. There are rights for the vaccinated and the health workers as well They have bodies as well. Your position is falling on deaf ears. You need a telephone booth to continue this point of views. For Damian I have no idea what to say to him. For a guy that suffered dire circumstances from vaccination he are has a lot of energy for posting on this site. Given his description I would have thought he was in a ICU.
 

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you are right my only point is stay away from me and others who have made a decision respecting the health of myself and others. Holmes said your rights end when you scream fire in a movie theatre. In Alberta your rights should end once the ICU s are plugged with the selfish unvaccinated. There are rights for the vaccinated and the health workers as well They have bodies as well. Your position is falling on deaf ears. You need a telephone booth to continue this point of views. For Damian I have no idea what to say to him. For a guy that suffered dire circumstances from vaccination he are has a lot of energy for posting on this site. Given his description I would have thought he was in a ICU.
You are right, except you are missing an irony here - you are the one screaming fire in a movie theatre.
By disallowing tested unvaccinated people from gathering, working, socializing - you are screaming at people who are less risky to their surroundings than untested vaccinated people.

Look at most recent changes:
- unvacinnated people with negative covid tests not being allowed to work or travel on planes or trains.

Facts are:
Unvaccinated person with negative COVID test is less risky for its surrounding than vaccinated person without negative COVID test.
False negative rate is significantly lower than efficacy of COVID vaccines in preventing infection.
You are removing people who are safer for their surroundings than people you allow to stay.
If it was up to safety, then this would be very counterproductive.
This policy literally increases risk for those traveling and for those working for federal government.
They have higher chance of catching COVID from untested vaccinated person than from tested unvaccinated person.
Those are facts.
Clearly it isn't about safety
 

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You are right, except you are missing an irony here - you are the one screaming fire in a movie theatre.
By disallowing tested unvaccinated people from gathering, working, socializing - you are screaming at people who are less risky to their surroundings than untested vaccinated people.

Look at most recent changes:
- unvacinnated people with negative covid tests not being allowed to work or travel on planes or trains.

Facts are:
Unvaccinated person with negative COVID test is less risky for its surrounding than vaccinated person without negative COVID test.
False negative rate is significantly lower than efficacy of COVID vaccines in preventing infection.
You are removing people who are safer for their surroundings than people you allow to stay.
If it was up to safety, then this would be very counterproductive.
This policy literally increases risk for those traveling and for those working for federal government.
They have higher chance of catching COVID from untested vaccinated person than from tested unvaccinated person.
Those are facts.
Clearly it isn't about safety
[/QUOT It is about safety when the unvaccinated totally clogged up the healthcare system in Alberta and SK.. That is the facts and reality.
 

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Yet smokers are allowed to smoke.
Obese people have no problem accessing fast food and aren't mandated on a diet and in a gym.
Over 70% of people in ICU with COVID are obese.
You are ignoring single biggest predictor of healthcare system utilization, single biggest user of healthcare system at this moment, yet you segregate, and discriminate others.
Also, if you are looking at societal benefit then for reasons stated in previous post (and you can easily verify the facts provided), the actions currently taken are counter-productive. Federal government literally introduced segregation laws that are DETRIMENTAL to the society health wise. They increase the spread by deciding to remove people with negative COVID test.
If you are really concerned about health in society, you would mandate tests for everyone and not remove only group actually tested.
It isn't about safety. Actions taken are detrimental to safety of society.
Vaccinated person with no test is more dangerous to their surroundings than unvaccinated person with negative test.
 

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berta 6.2 million vaccinations. Reported negative side effects. are at 1600 and almost all are minor from sore arms andswelling to nausea, headaches or allergic reactions. Almost all of those were over in a day or two.
To be fair, minor side effects are massively underreported. I did not report my sore arm and mild fatigue from first Pfizer shot nor the 2-3 days of muscle soreness, headache, etc. from Moderna 2nd shot.
 
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