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Why does nobody talk about math?

Why is everyone so concerned about shyt?

LOOK. AT. THE. NUMBERS.

Like my god... What are even the chances?

If you're a fear mongering covid person... Then wear a fucking body suit when you go outside and shut up already. Or better yet... Don't go out at all. Stop asking other people to do shyt because you're scared.

If you're scared, stay home.

This argument is so beyond me. I can't understand it. Since when did this world become such a "let me do this for everyone else" world.

What happened to being able to living a good life?
 

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Why does nobody talk about math?

Why is everyone so concerned about shyt?

LOOK. AT. THE. NUMBERS.

Like my god... What are even the chances?

If you're a fear mongering covid person... Then wear a fucking body suit when you go outside and shut up already. Or better yet... Don't go out at all. Stop asking other people to do shyt because you're scared.

If you're scared, stay home.

This argument is so beyond me. I can't understand it. Since when did this world become such a "let me do this for everyone else" world.

What happened to being able to living a good life?
james would tell that you are not sharing so-called "Canadian values" LOL
 

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james would tell that you are not sharing so-called "Canadian values" LOL
Born and raised Canadian (unfortunately, what an embarassment, to be honest).

So, I'd say all my values are truly Canadian. Sucks for James.
 

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Born and raised Canadian (unfortunately, what an embarassment, to be honest).

So, I'd say all my values are truly Canadian. Sucks for James.
I'm proud that I wasn't "Born and raised Canadian" ... same with my son ... my daughter was born here , but I didn't raise her Canadian
 

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I'm proud that I wasn't "Born and raised Canadian" ... same with my son ... my daughter was born here , but I didn't raise her Canadian
As you shouldn't.

Many people will throw me under the bus for the comment (but let's be real, I don't have many friends on this board) but I honestly am so embarrassed of this country.

Being Canadian used to mean something. It meant you stood for what was right. Today? Who even knows. Now, we are just an old dog rolling over for a treat or a belly rub, waiting for scraps at the edge of the table while the Big Dogs eat well and talk about things important that don't concern us.

And yet... We remain loyal to everyone. Even if they fuk us.
 

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As you shouldn't.

Many people will throw me under the bus for the comment (but let's be real, I don't have many friends on this board) but I honestly am so embarrassed of this country.

Being Canadian used to mean something. It meant you stood for what was right. Today? Who even knows. Now, we are just an old dog rolling over for a treat or a belly rub, waiting for scraps at the edge of the table while the Big Dogs eat well and talk about things important that don't concern us.

And yet... We remain loyal to everyone. Even if they fuk us.
I live in Canada 22 years and the only bright period was during Harper ... since Trudeau started to rule the country going to [email protected] ... I'm very bearish for Canada ... this is place with no future
 

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I live in Canada 22 years and the only bright period was during Harper ... since Trudeau started to rule the country going to [email protected] ... I'm very bearish for Canada ... this is place with no future
It's refreshing to know I'm not the only one who sees it this way.
 

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KaeJS. Your math argument falls apart once you acknowledge that a covid infection is inevitable for all of us. It is like you are saying, what are the odds of me catching a cold? On any given day it is pretty darn low. In a lifetime, it is a certainty. Covid is that cold now. It is all over the world. It is incubated by animals, so as to render any herd immunity in humans an impossibility, and of course, it would take years to infect everyone globally, so as to render herd immunity an option, anyway. Covid is here to stay, we will all meet up with it.

Now if someone was generous enough to offer you a safe (tested by billions of people) vaccine to prevent most of the severity of a cold, would you not give it a little more rational thought. Not only does the vaccine do that for covid, but you have to admit covid is definitely more dangerous then a common cold. After you remove your math on the probability of infection you are left with the math pertaining to your odds of survival and health result after infection. That is not too bad either but again, the vaccine takes care of that one and they are safe and free.

If you like math, why not deal with all the math. Bring the whole risk equation down to almost zero. The math you talk about is pointing us towards the best common sense approach.
 

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^ The poor-me-little-man has to "stand up in what he believes in" ... which is? Must be something "special".
 

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^ The poor-me-little-man has to "stand up in what he believes in" ... which is? Must be something "special".
Human rights?
Yeah, that's something "special".

I actually wonder how those without principles navigate their lives. Is it really just all about you and whatever whims take you, and forget about society, or is it something else?
 

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Nope, false! :)
Show me a study that prove vaccinated people don't spread delta variant?
It has been proven that viral load vaccinated people carry is the same as in unvaccinated (as per CDC). There is hypothesis that they might spread it for shorter amount of time, but yet unproven.

Of course this conversation is completely hypothetical as any restriction targeting unvaccinated people with previous infection is completely illegal due to failure of Oakes test
Not so. The virus in fully vaccinated people doesn't last more than 4 or 5 days. For the unvaccinated the average is much higher . If the vaccinated person has a high antibody count the level would be quite low. The virus is transmitted in molecules . The unvaccinated with signs of covid [coughing and sneezing] are a much bigger risk. I haven't the link but I am sure John Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic and CDC research confirms this .
 

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The studies were looking at first 7 days.
For first 7 days the viral loads were the same.

There is no data I was able to find past that. If you can find data for viral loads of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people for period beyond first 7 days then let me know.
In majority of countries (entire EU for example) it is a policy that if you don't develop symptoms within 10 days then you are fine to rejoin the society.
There would have to be massive difference in viral loads in days 8 and days 9 in that case for the spread to be materially different.

Vaccines help prevent hospitalization and death. They don't prevent spread
 

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I haven't the link but I am sure John Hopkins, the Mayo Clinic and CDC research confirms this .
I can't support my claim, but I'm sure I'm right.

Well I would suggest that people who can't support their claims aren't correct in their claims.
In my experience, they are occasionally right.
However quite often, particularly with outrageous claims they're either completely wrong (sags does this lots), or they misrepresent the actual claim in the data they cite. This is why citing a source is important.
 

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The studies were looking at first 7 days.
For first 7 days the viral loads were the same.

There is no data I was able to find past that. If you can find data for viral loads of vaccinated vs unvaccinated people for period beyond first 7 days then let me know.
In majority of countries (entire EU for example) it is a policy that if you don't develop symptoms within 10 days then you are fine to rejoin the society.
There would have to be massive difference in viral loads in days 8 and days 9 in that case for the spread to be materially different.

Vaccines help prevent hospitalization and death. They don't prevent spread
What that study looked at was "symptomatic covid infections" between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. They left out the huge difference in numbers of people who actually become symptomatically infected, when separated between unvaccinated or vaccinated. So that is what makes the biggest difference in how much a vaccinated person can transmit the virus when compared to unvaccinated.

Not only that, but they used PCR testing to determine viral load and that is fought with error. PCR testing pics up both dead and active virus. It only gives a rough approximation of viral load.

To add more insult to the conclusions of that study, they took two people, who looked to be about the same in sickness. They had no idea what size of infection each person (unvaccinated compared to vaccinated) was originally exposed to, that their bodies were currently fighting off. Since your final outcome will be related very closely to viral load, if you think about it, what they did was search and search and search until they found two people (one vaccinated the other unvaccinated) with the same viral load (looked to be about the same level of sickness) and said, "hey look at that , these two have the same viral load"? Wow. What a revelation.

Can you not see the ridiculousness in their conclusions. Fully vaccinated people will have a seriously reduced ability to transmit this virus, but unfortuneately, that ability has not been reduced to zero. For that we will probably require some level of virus exposure, but until then, vaccination is the best thing we have and it should be embraced by anyone who is truly tiring of this pandemic.
 

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^ The poor-me-little-man has to "stand up in what he believes in" ... which is? Must be something "special".
Just another one of your jabs that offers absolutely nothing to Optsy's post.

How old are you? I'm actually curious.
 

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What that study looked at was "symptomatic covid infections" between vaccinated and unvaccinated people. They left out the huge difference in numbers of people who actually become symptomatically infected, when separated between unvaccinated or vaccinated. So that is what makes the biggest difference in how much a vaccinated person can transmit the virus when compared to unvaccinated.

Not only that, but they used PCR testing to determine viral load and that is fought with error. PCR testing pics up both dead and active virus. It only gives a rough approximation of viral load.

To add more insult to the conclusions of that study, they took two people, who looked to be about the same in sickness. They had no idea what size of infection each person (unvaccinated compared to vaccinated) was originally exposed to, that their bodies were currently fighting off. Since your final outcome will be related very closely to viral load, if you think about it, what they did was search and search and search until they found two people (one vaccinated the other unvaccinated) with the same viral load (looked to be about the same level of sickness) and said, "hey look at that , these two have the same viral load"? Wow. What a revelation.

Can you not see the ridiculousness in their conclusions. Fully vaccinated people will have a seriously reduced ability to transmit this virus, but unfortuneately, that ability has not been reduced to zero. For that we will probably require some level of virus exposure, but until then, vaccination is the best thing we have and it should be embraced by anyone who is truly tiring of this pandemic.
With the constraints you put there is literally not a single study that passes it.
Please, keeping those restrictions in mind, post a study that proves vaccinations stop transmissions of delta variant?
Because when breaking human rights, the onus of proof is on the ones who violate the human rights, not on ones whose rights are violated
 

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With the constraints you put there is literally not a single study that passes it.
Please, keeping those restrictions in mind, post a study that proves vaccinations stop transmissions of delta variant?
Because when breaking human rights, the onus of proof is on the ones who violate the human rights, not on ones whose rights are violated
Vaccination does not stop transmission of the virus, it just reduces it very significantly. That was the main point I wanted to clarify.

I am not going to apologize for poorly done studies. The one you posted had glaring holes in it. I just wanted to make sure everyone understands what it actually proved...very little.

As for human rights. My points have nothing to do with that. I assume you are talking about vaccine passports and mandatory vaccination. The problem there is who's rights are we actually talking about? The unvaccinated person or the other person they are about to infect. Since the vaccinated cannot infect as many people as the unvaccinated, they cannot be put into the same argument. The vaccinated have done everything asked of them. We are just waiting for the unvaccinated to step up and while we wait, protecting society as best we can. I do wish they would hurry up though. This pandemic is growing old and I would like to move forward.

I do agree with your other point. A previously infected person should be issued a vaccine passport even if they do not vaccinate and obtain the additional protection provided by the vaccines.
 

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With the constraints you put there is literally not a single study that passes it.
Please, keeping those restrictions in mind, post a study that proves vaccinations stop transmissions of delta variant?
Because when breaking human rights, the onus of proof is on the ones who violate the human rights, not on ones whose rights are violated
In aggregate the vaccine slows the spread, it does not stop it.

I think there is enough risk to restrict symptomatic people. Vaccination status is irrelevant.
 

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Vaccination does not stop transmission of the virus, it just reduces it very significantly. That was the main point I wanted to clarify.

I am not going to apologize for poorly done studies. The one you posted had glaring holes in it. I just wanted to make sure everyone understands what it actually proved...very little.

As for human rights. My points have nothing to do with that. I assume you are talking about vaccine passports and mandatory vaccination. The problem there is who's rights are we actually talking about? The unvaccinated person or the other person they are about to infect. Since the vaccinated cannot infect as many people as the unvaccinated, they cannot be put into the same argument. The vaccinated have done everything asked of them. We are just waiting for the unvaccinated to step up and while we wait, protecting society as best we can. I do wish they would hurry up though. This pandemic is growing old and I would like to move forward.

I do agree with your other point. A previously infected person should be issued a vaccine passport even if they do not vaccinate and obtain the additional protection provided by the vaccines.
Where do you have a data showing it reduces it significantly? Also, what is the definition of 'significantly'?
Viral load is quantitative. it can be measured, it can be compared. It isn't perfect, but you still didn't supply a study that is superior.

In regards to human rights it is quite easy actually. You have charter of rights and freedoms. It has multiple sections. Breaking any of them is violation of rights.
Now, in Canada, you can break human rights by using a loophole - Oakes test.
It is quite subjective, but basically three conditions need to be fulfilled.

The conditions necessary to pass Oakes test aren't fulfilled in rights violation of unvaccinated people with previous infection.

You are making an assumption that vaccination means moving forward and ending pandemic. It doesn't. It has been demonstrated in multiple countries with high vaccination rates.
Moving forward and ending pandemic is now purely political decision.
if there is political will - they can finish with it today.
If there is no political will - they can continue the pandemic until we all die by old age
 

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KaeJS. Your math argument falls apart once you acknowledge that a covid infection is inevitable for all of us.

If you like math, why not deal with all the math. Bring the whole risk equation down to almost zero. The math you talk about is pointing us towards the best common sense approach.
You always take the time to write well thought out posts without being rude so I feel obligated to respond.

You are correct about the math assuming the numbers and science and everything is correct. I have no argument.

Personally, there has been so much BS floating around in the last 1.5 years that I just can't be bothered with any of it. Remember when that woman said to wear a mask during sex?

Honestly, I'm just tired. It's exhausting, frustrating and annoying. I don't even know what to believe anymore. All I know is that I haven't had an issue with being unvaxxed thus far and I'm in a low risk group even if I were to get covid.

Thing is, I can't really lose.
If it is true the vaxx is slowing the spread or whatever it may be, then great. More people are getting vaxxed every single day. My chances decrease daily. But once again, it is their choice to get vaxxed and I'm not forcing anyone.

America has been mask free for basically all of 2021 and here we are... Still wearing masks... Adding vaccine passports...

It just gets worse and worse.
I'm waiting for the inevitable booster shots and 5th, 6th, 11th wave....
 
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