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Discussion Starter #1
Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?

My thought on this is that someone wanted these bankers to make huge bonus money and maybe set up a collapse in the US and its dollar. I believe the Fed knew everything about where this will all lead to and didn't want to stop it.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.

They are trying and we are hurtling towards some kind of disaster whether it is deflation, hyper-inflation or both.

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.

I believe this is happening for sure to hide all the real problems out there.

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.

If it helps, then sure lets do it.

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.

This is because people are voting against the paper currencies and turning to gold. Like it or not gold is considered money and someday the paper currencies of today will disappear.

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.

I believe through manipulation or stupidity that we are heading for an overhaul and before this decade is out we will have a new sound era to move into. This era will carry us forward for the next 70- 80 years with the ups and downs along the way.

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.

I believe we will get through this problem smelling like roses in the end and oil will not matter so much in the decade after this one.

8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam.

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.

We do need to save energy and do better and so on but I believe some very rich people want to control all this for their benefit.
 

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I think a lot of these "conspiracies" are likely even though they will only ever be "theories"

The current system lets corporations do whatever they can to make money, and ultimately gain power and control without any accountability. It's supposed to rely on competition, but it has obviously advanced to deception and manipulation.

I think corporations have advanced so far that they can control far more than the average person realizes they can. "The Fed" is just one corporation

I think as the system gets too far out of hand, it will have to come crashing down like many systems have before. The question is when?

The younger generation is really starting to wake up and be less convinced by the brainwashing mass media. In that way corporations are losing some of their control. I think that once enough people "wake up" it will have a snowball effect

I think a huge turning point will be if they manage to replace the internet with "the grid". It will either cause an outcry, or kill the spread of these "conspiracy theories"
 

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Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?

I think this was a compounding of human stupidity and greed. People and institutions lending to people they knew were not qualified but not really seeing the end game. Individually it was innocuous but in the big picture compounded over and over the overall effect was devastating. In psychology it's called "groupthink" and is known to be very dangerous. Other examples include what happened in Germany during the Second World War, the Bush Administration torturing people and of course this latest debacle. Psychology experiments have shown that 90% of people will deliver a fatal electric shock if ordered to by a "superior" or someone in authority.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.

Bubbles do not have to be set up, they are an outcome of the lemming effect. Everyone wants to do the in thing. They will follow you off a cliff, buy a new car or buy the new sexy stock so that they can tell their friends at the water cooler how smart they are.

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.

During this whole US crisis I thought why the heck don't these banks rejig these mortgages? This way they avoid the wave after wave of foreclosures that are destroying the entire RE market in the US. It's like they are too stupid to even help themselves.

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.

Fear and panic is the real enemy of pure capitalism. If fear and panic take hold of the masses down south they may expect human rights, equality, and even health care. There's 350 million people in the States if they start waking up and demanding some of the things that we take for granted here in Canada and in the rest of the developed nations of Europe their government would have to reform.

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.

Read above about bubbles and following other people.

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.

Pure capitalism and consumerism is not sustainable. The system we have of not creating anything in Canada and the United States creating a profitable middle class cannot continue.

It is unrealistic to expect our corporations to continue to increase profits quarter after quarter. What is wrong with a company that makes slow and steady money over and over.

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.

When we have no cheap oil we will find something else. Also we have the technology to go without oil it is just very expensive which we don't want to face.

8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam.

He got the wrong girl knocked up and her daddy made him pay.

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.

Global warming is real and they'd rather keep us buying their stuff than address the problems in a serious way.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
High Octane I agree the system will crash and we are there except for the deceptions to let it go on a little longer. I feel the debt in the US is just to high and going higher to the breaking point which may have been reached and we just don't feel it yet.

On gold berubeland I have been in and out of it since it was 390 dollars an ounce and have done very well. I feel the next stage to come will be the producers buying the juniors to bring more future production. Of course after that the public will buy like the internet ending the bull market sending gold into hibernation until the next bull market.

Global warming should be seen more as a common sense exercise teaching people and companies to conserve and not to waste. We should also award those who conserve our resources. But just don't get conned by carbon credits, carbon tax on gas and greedy people with false or forced science which will only help the greedy.

I may be wrong but your take on capitalism is based on snowing people over to make it work. I believe that would be the cornerstone of all systems.
 

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I think this was a compounding of human stupidity and greed. People and institutions lending to people they knew were not qualified but not really seeing the end game. Individually it was innocuous but in the big picture compounded over and over the overall effect was devastating. In psychology it's called "groupthink" and is known to be very dangerous. Other examples include what happened in Germany during the Second World War, the Bush Administration torturing people and of course this latest debacle. Psychology experiments have shown that 90% of people will deliver a fatal electric shock if ordered to by a "superior" or someone in authority.
Yup it's "groupthink" so who's the mastermind?? Not Hitler this time. Basically instead of people taking the time to think of what's best for them, they just accept the norm from the media. Anyone who doesn't follow groupthink is a conspiracy theorist

I like the term "sheeple" - when people follow follow a herd without really paying attention to who's leading them. If nobody leads sheep, they just kinda scatter

The mass media is a perceived authority, we assume they are legit because it looks professional (just like the random person in uniform who told people to electrocute others)

Bubbles do not have to be set up, they are an outcome of the lemming effect. Everyone wants to do the in thing. They will follow you off a cliff, buy a new car or buy the new sexy stock so that they can tell their friends at the water cooler how smart they are.
So who's the leading and manipulating the lemmings then? Groupthing or lemmings all follow something, or else the effect wouldn't exist

Wouldn't it be easy for a strategic move to take advantage of these effects?

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.

Pure capitalism and consumerism is not sustainable. The system we have of not creating anything in Canada and the United States creating a profitable middle class cannot continue.

It is unrealistic to expect our corporations to continue to increase profits quarter after quarter. What is wrong with a company that makes slow and steady money over and over.
They are making ridiculous profit from products made in other countries, I think it is sustainable while we continue to exploit others and pretend to help them

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.

When we have no cheap oil we will find something else. Also we have the technology to go without oil it is just very expensive which we don't want to face.
We don't want to change? Or they don't want to change?

Oil is a controlled limited resource and therefore very profitable. We have the technology to switch to something else but we won't get the best thing for us or the planet, it will be the next most profitable resource.

8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam.

He got the wrong girl knocked up and her daddy made him pay.
Vietnam was extremely profitable, and JFK wasn't giving in.

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.

Global warming is real and they'd rather keep us buying their stuff than address the problems in a serious way.

The climate has always changed, of course it's serious, the question is are we speeding it up and by how much?

I don't think we can stop climate change, we need to adapt in order to survive like any other strong species does.
 

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Just for a little fun and be a little serious if you want what are some thoughts or theories you may have about the what we have seen or will see.

1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?
Allowed? No one was/is in control. Greed of course. Money makes the world go round.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.
As already noted bubbles aren't manufactured they are created... see the lemming comments above. Oil would be the closest to a manufactured bubble but again is the bubble the cause or the effect...

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.
That's the whole idea. Why would anyone not expect an "opportune prop up"?

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.
Of course. People can only stomach so much so why pummel them with stuff they don't understand anyway. Easy to hide that.

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.
So? Gold moves with oil and other commodities, inverse to the USD in which it is priced (same as oil). Nothing shocking here. Fate of the US vs fate of gold. Declining empire of course, but not so fast.

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.
No we are not. If you think this is the endgame you've led a very very sheltered life. We have not seen diddly to this point and likely won't in our lifetimes.

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.
Peak oil? Is that a banker's term? Lol. Who cares... insert next energy source when necessary or profitable to do so. BTW peak oil is hogwash.

8. John F. Kennedy was assassinated because he wanted to get rid of or bug the Fed and didn't want to be in Vietnam.
What's this got to do with investing? No idea, don't care. Apparently was too popular and sleazy for someone to stomach.

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.
Global warming is fact. Climate change is normal. Are humans the reason the climate on Mars has changed? Do your part don't be a hog and an idiot. Alas, many people are. Humans are too stubborn (some will say stupid) to adapt. Other species have better odds.
 

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Oil won't matter much in the decade after this one? We have the technology to live without oil? You guys really underestimate the role that oil plays in the world today.
 

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If the greatest replacement for oil was discovered today. It will take 30 years to build the infrastructure.

In my low tech way I was filling up in Fenlon Falls, ask owner about his huge natural gas tank. With installation cost, inspections, certified operates, just general red tape can't see that replacing oil.

Lost my shirt and pants on fuel cells once.

I'm also reading Shell Shocked by John Stephenson who writes that the US is 7% of China's GDP. That's pretty small and helps me understand how our economy has stood up.

Conspiracy's usually just lack of knowledge.
 

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If the greatest replacement for oil was discovered today. It will take 30 years to build the infrastructure.

In my low tech way I was filling up in Fenlon Falls, ask owner about his huge natural gas tank. With installation cost, inspections, certified operates, just general red tape can't see that replacing oil.

Lost my shirt and pants on fuel cells once.

I'm also reading Shell Shocked by John Stephenson who writes that the US is 7% of China's GDP. That's pretty small and helps me understand how our economy has stood up.

Conspiracy's usually just lack of knowledge.
I don't need much knowledge to understand that technology is paralyzed because there is no incentive to replace oil. The incentive is to ensure you squash any new technology, and build an infrastructure to lock in oil for as long as possible.

I've seen fuel cells work in military labs, but the military can only push technology like that in a time of war with another advanced country. I'm sure there are many other technologies we could develop if it wasn't paralysed

So are you saying China doesn't rely on USA as much as people think? Ok. My concern is corporate america is exploiting and pillaging as many countries as it can. Chinese corporations fit in as a direct competitor for these resources, not a subordinate

I do lack knowledge but I think you have a closed mind
 

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Yes you hit most of the points for oil and fuel cells.

At 7 % the US is very small trading partner if this book is correct. So here in Canada our resource stayed relatively strong our banks stayed relatively strong our markets bounce back faster.

Have also read that China will be a consumer nation within 10 years so some job repatriation could happen.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
High octane is correct about technology replacing oil is being paralyzed. Mogul777 is right if we want to replace oil we will it is just a matter of the right greedy people making it so, so they can make the most money and control the replacements to oil. I am sure these people have already figured out the time line and the gradual replacement of oil which we are just starting to witness now. They need arguments on climate change and peak oil to make them look like the good guys so they can get into power through governments and make their agenda happen on their time table.

On gold I don't agree it follows other commodities all the time. Gold is a product of this endgame as people run from the tumbling currencies or looking for a safe haven like the US dollar which is seen as the best of the worst. So gold will either do well or hold its value during a hyper-inflation or a deflation as the world works off the credit of the last 20 or more years.

JFK matters in money because the same company that made the money in Vietnam and started the downfall of America also made the money in Iraq. The company in question is Halliburton and was under a different name I believe during or before the Vietnam war. The thing is this company has made tons of money for the greedy over the dead bodies of Americans and at the expensive of the American economy during the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq.
 

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JFK matters in money because the same company that made the money in Vietnam and started the downfall of America also made the money in Iraq. The company in question is Halliburton and was under a different name I believe during or before the Vietnam war. The thing is this company has made tons of money for the greedy over the dead bodies of Americans and at the expensive of the American economy during the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq.
JFK is a huge event in my mind, I see a lot of similarities with 9/11

Immediately after both events we knew exactly who to blame, even though it was never clearly proven who was to blame the media never shows an ounce of doubt. Both events enabled the USA to go to war on questionable terms

The conspiracy theories get a bad name because they are written and spread by amateurs. I work in air defense and I can poke holes all through a 9/11 conspiracy theory because they make a lot of assumptions and exaggerations

There are way too many holes to just blindly accept the official explanations. It is blatantly impossible for a building to free fall straight down, when only damaged at the top
 

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There is no "incentive is to ensure you squash any new technology, and build an infrastructure to lock in oil for as long as possible." Oil is just such a CHEAP/portable/energy dense source that funding alternatives won't be prevalent until the oil price is much higher.

Assume for a moment that down the road (inflation adjusted to today's dollars) oil is at $500/b and so the next energy source is in place, infrastructure and all. Let's just say quality of life and standard of living will be on the decline for most people as everything gets more expensive relative to their paycheques, especially food. I'd love to see airlines flying non-hydrocarbon fuelled 747's!

Replacing oil is not just a matter of the greedy bad guys making it so, whoever they are. The invisible hand will determine it. I look forward to seeing how it all plays out.
 

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Assume for a moment that down the road (inflation adjusted to today's dollars) oil is at $500/b and so the next energy source is in place, infrastructure and all. Let's just say quality of life and standard of living will be on the decline for most people as everything gets more expensive relative to their paycheques, especially food. I'd love to see airlines flying non-hydrocarbon fuelled 747's!
What about technology that vastly reduces the consumption of oil? It's been around for decades but is never implemented because there's no incentive. Ever heard of direct injection?

The infrastructure is set up to consume oil, and there is no way to change that now. We use B747's as much as possible rather than high speed trains etc. Our cities are designed to travel by personal vehicle rather than public transport.

Personally I think quality of life must suck for those in traffic jams 4 hrs a day, and I would certainly rather take a modern train than a B747 a lot of times
 

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What about technology that vastly reduces the consumption of oil? It's been around for decades but is never implemented because there's no incentive. Ever heard of direct injection?

The infrastructure is set up to consume oil, and there is no way to change that now. We use B747's as much as possible rather than high speed trains etc. Our cities are designed to travel by personal vehicle rather than public transport.

Personally I think quality of life must suck for those in traffic jams 4 hrs a day, and I would certainly rather take a modern train than a B747 a lot of times
Technology that reduces oil consumption is constantly being developed and implemented. I expect direct fuel injection engines to be much more common over the next decade. The question is whether or not the reduction in oil consumption due to innovation can keep up with decline in oil production.

Don't worry, trains and ships may be more popular than planes again one day. Imo, public transport is pretty good in the Canadian cities that have big traffic jams.
 

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1. Why was the financial mess allowed to take place in the US and elsewhere?

Short memories. Nothing new under the sun here. The news articles could have been written any time from the 1800s, 70s/early 80s, 90, 2000s and before. Business cycles happen and this just happens to be a bigger one.

2. They are trying to set up another bubble to really screw everyone over.
Unsure who "they" are and how scewing everyone over helps "them" - curious to know who "they" are?

3. The stock market is being propped up at opportune times to keep the party going by nailing the short sellers and tripping technical targets.

If "they" can, sure, why not?

4. Unemployment, inflation and big banks hiding what is real is being allowed to be hidden or not being marked to market.

Yep..governments - like everyone - want their performance to be better than it is...re: China

5. Gold has gone up since 2001 even though it doesn't pay to hold it and so on.
Lead did better

6. We are at the end game and reset is required.
ya ya ya

7. We will see peak oil and all will be over.
dis-agree, could be more or less oil, more or less gas, just what we're willing to pay for.

9. Global Warming is a farce and made up to make big money for people who don't need it.

You saved the best for last :). I believed in Global Warming (oops, CLIMATE change) at one time but since they it's been taken over by extremists and has become a religion. Yes; there is an issue, perhaps even a crisis. Yes; we need to be frugal with our resources but you want me to believe you have an accurate computer model - which can say what I want it to say - of what will happen 30 years from now? We can't predict something as 'simple' as the stock market 3 months from now. I'm with Vaclav Klaus on the implications of this, it's not about money but power. Textbook case on how to create and sell a crisis to achieve your ends. I can't trust a company's financial statements to be true, you want me to trust the U.N.? Settled science my ***.

paraprhase from the that anon. (Wilde? Shaw?) guy again "It's not the evil men I fear since they will eventually tire. It is those who wish to do good I fear as they will continually drive themselves to do their good, no matter what the cost to their fellow man" and "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction" ~ Pascal
 

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Discussion Starter #17
John Michaels on number one you suggest they were not smart enough to do better and that is possible. If this is the case I certainly don't trust them to do better now on the financial front.

On gold you said lead did better and I have to admit I like that comment.

On the end game I believe it means they have to do something like raise taxes cut spending and so to get serious about the problems they face. They also have to increase the savings rate and stop trying to simply push credit out the door to people already full of debt. Canadians got serious in the 90's and we didn't let bankers do whatever they wanted and look where we found ourselves. If Americans don't get serious then a reset caused by hyper-inflation or deflation may be the only way out.

The evil men or the ones with the power and the money will use these do good and religious idiots to help them to achieve their goals.

I also still like a lot of what high octane says he seems to have a handle on these things. He seems to realize that the tailspin in the US started after JFK was assassinated.
 

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"Useful idiots" is the most appropriate (and relevant reference) term here.

I personally think formal religion is a good thing and don't want to disparage Religion but will attribute negative qualities the religious-like fever of those who think they have 'the answer' to anything. ...the more I educate myself, the less sure I am, funny how that works.
 

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I'm not trying to preach an answer to anything. I just wish people would realize how inherently flawed the system is. No matter how good people generally are, conspiracies will exist just because they are profitable

It is known the most powerful corporate leaders meet and collaborate. The theories of what they are planning are just that, and likely exaggerated. Whether they are planning to manipulate the stock market or suppress hydrogen fuel cells; your guess is as good as mine. I doubt the are discussing how to help Haiti or reduce carbon emissions though.

If money is power, the governments in debt have certainly lost the upper hand IMO
 

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They'll discuss Haiti or carbon emissions if there is something for them to gain. Don't worry about that. Course as has been noted in this thread "they" and "them" are not always easy to identify.

I've said it before religion is a root of evil, as are money, and love & hate. More wars are faught over religious differences than over money. Money is simply a means to an end, and only sometimes is greed (aka money) that end.
 
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