As was suggested earlier, if Canada Post wants to partner with someone like Simplii or Tangerine in isolated communities with a 'portal', then by all means do so. I don't know what makes that different from online banking though other than perhaps being able to withdraw/deposit cash like a full service ATM. As long as Canada Post does not carry the financial burden. They are on shaky financial viability as it is.
Canada Post Banking
What are people's thoughts about Canada Post getting into banking? They only shut it down in the 1960s in Canada, and it's still being done in other countries, namely Japan.
Reason why I'm curious is that there are obviously underserved communities, and more recently, Scotiabank is pulling out of Grand Manan: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/grand-manan-scotiabank-ferry-blacks-harbour-1.6539874
You can argue that you can do almost everything on-line/credit cards/debit, etc. The key is ALMOST. There's always going to be some edge cases where you want/need cash, and given the fact that postal offices are everywhere, it doesn't seem to have that much of an added burden. What will likely happen is that commercial banks will possibly pull out, leaving the postal banks around.
Personally, it sounds like a good idea, particularly when the government wants to target high banking fees. Having some bare bones account seems reasonable. Or, another option is to partner with Simplii/Tangerine or some other virtual bank to provide brick locations for ATMs/banking services to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Canada post is already partnering with TD for personal loans, so I don't see that big a stretch: Canada Post and TD enter strategic alliance to expand access to financial services for Canadians
For some other points supporting postal banking: Postal Banking
Reason why I'm curious is that there are obviously underserved communities, and more recently, Scotiabank is pulling out of Grand Manan: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/grand-manan-scotiabank-ferry-blacks-harbour-1.6539874
You can argue that you can do almost everything on-line/credit cards/debit, etc. The key is ALMOST. There's always going to be some edge cases where you want/need cash, and given the fact that postal offices are everywhere, it doesn't seem to have that much of an added burden. What will likely happen is that commercial banks will possibly pull out, leaving the postal banks around.
Personally, it sounds like a good idea, particularly when the government wants to target high banking fees. Having some bare bones account seems reasonable. Or, another option is to partner with Simplii/Tangerine or some other virtual bank to provide brick locations for ATMs/banking services to avoid re-inventing the wheel. Canada post is already partnering with TD for personal loans, so I don't see that big a stretch: Canada Post and TD enter strategic alliance to expand access to financial services for Canadians
For some other points supporting postal banking: Postal Banking
21 - 40 of 51 Posts
Got it, so you and @AltaRed don't think it's worth the trouble. I don't think there's anything else to discuss then.I just don't see the business model for such a niche market. People should always carry some cash for emergencies situations or when going out to remote areas. For remote areas why not bring back the old credit card swiper machines?
I'll just mention that if you're talking about those old carbon copy type credit card machines, I doubt you'll be able to find them around. The other thing is that it seems that credit cards are getting away from those embossed cards and just print the credit numbers on the back of the card. For example, the new Costco card.
It is primarily that Cainvest and I don't see the business model to make postal banking work. Who is going to pay for the application, operation and management of it?
If you can come up with a plausible business plan, I am willing to listen.
If you can come up with a plausible business plan, I am willing to listen.
As was mentioned, if they could show a profitable business model for it, sure. Like if they had an agreement with a bank that would flip the bill (basically pay CP for their retail space,training,etc) in exchange for remote access ... that might work.Got it, so you and @AltaRed don't think it's worth the trouble. I don't think there's anything else to discuss then.
lol, I forgot about the new Costco cards. In any case, I'm sure they could come up with a better way now to do an "offline" purchase either with the existing terminals or a smartphone app.I'll just mention that if you're talking about those old carbon copy type credit card machines, I doubt you'll be able to find them around. The other thing is that it seems that credit cards are getting away from those embossed cards and just print the credit numbers on the back of the card. For example, the new Costco card.
View attachment 23522
I personally can't come up with the business plan; however, here's an older report from CCPA (2013), which outlines some models that could be used, compared to some models used in other countries: https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National Office/2013/10/Why_Canada_Needs_PostalBanking.pdf.
Sure if you want to dismiss it out of hand because it's published by CCPA, as it has a left-wing bias, go ahead. But it's worth looking at. It may be old, but I doubt the situation has fundamentally changed, nor has bank access increased.
Edit: Also forgot this fun link about the banks telling the government not to consider it. Canada: banks want the post office to stay out of banking business. I'd say banks being against it (and the reason why postal banking shut down in the 1960s) should make one consider why that is.
Sure if you want to dismiss it out of hand because it's published by CCPA, as it has a left-wing bias, go ahead. But it's worth looking at. It may be old, but I doubt the situation has fundamentally changed, nor has bank access increased.
Edit: Also forgot this fun link about the banks telling the government not to consider it. Canada: banks want the post office to stay out of banking business. I'd say banks being against it (and the reason why postal banking shut down in the 1960s) should make one consider why that is.
The latter because either CP or the government will end up subsidizing it in a mind boggling manner. Any government involvement usually means a bureaucratic f**k up. It is like the CBC versus the private networks. It is not a level playing field. Keep government and its agencies out of the business of competing with business.
I am not adverse to CP providing some financial services where no alternative exists, but I loathe the building of a full blown cross-Canada operation and let's face it... that is what greedy civil servants ultimately want to build... another empire.
I am not adverse to CP providing some financial services where no alternative exists, but I loathe the building of a full blown cross-Canada operation and let's face it... that is what greedy civil servants ultimately want to build... another empire.
Skimmed through it, reads more like high level promotional material.I personally can't come up with the business plan; however, here's an older report from CCPA (2013), which outlines some models that could be used, compared to some models used in other countries: https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National Office/2013/10/Why_Canada_Needs_PostalBanking.pdf.
Sure if you want to dismiss it out of hand because it's published by CCPA, as it has a left-wing bias, go ahead. But it's worth looking at. It may be old, but I doubt the situation has fundamentally changed, nor has bank access increased.
That document may be a place to start but you really need a business plan with ROI figures based on what they actually plan to roll out for services. Like if they wanted to roll out fee based "humanized interac service" for cash withdrawals/deposits to all the major banks for remote Post Offices, that might be good. First off see if the banks will eat all or some of the fees themselves in exchange for the expanded reach.
I had read that document years ago when the media first floated it. It is exactly what one would have expected in promoting the concept of more government intervention in the economy.
I would rather like to see Canada Post's protected status of mail delivery being open to private competition from others while at the same time allowing Canada Post to close extraneous post offices, reduce door-to-door delivery (both the number of doors and frequency) to make the business solvent on its own. Government would have to subsidize isolated outposts to keep the mail being delivered to the northern reaches of our country, e.g. locations more than 100km apart from the nearest facility.
Letter mail and direct marketing material portions of Canada Post's business, especially the former, are horrendous cash flow bleeds on its business and it will only get worse as the volume continues to decline each and every year. At some point, letter sorting facilities and the letter carrier workforce can no longer be supported. There needs to be more and more community mailboxes and more banks of boxes in current CP retail locations like drug stores and supermarkets. I don't have a tidy reference to the trend.....as one needs to look at the Annual Reports from Canada Post each year to get the yearly stats. I am not that motivated to do so.
The situation is not unlike the filing of income tax returns where paper submissions by paper decline by 1-2 percentage points each tax year. For the 2021 tax season, only 7.9% of T1 tax returns were filed by paper, a drop from 14% as late as calendar year 2017. In less than 10 years, the number will have diminished to near zero (final T1 tax returns excepted). Individual income tax return statistics for the 2022 tax-filing season - Canada.ca
I would rather like to see Canada Post's protected status of mail delivery being open to private competition from others while at the same time allowing Canada Post to close extraneous post offices, reduce door-to-door delivery (both the number of doors and frequency) to make the business solvent on its own. Government would have to subsidize isolated outposts to keep the mail being delivered to the northern reaches of our country, e.g. locations more than 100km apart from the nearest facility.
Letter mail and direct marketing material portions of Canada Post's business, especially the former, are horrendous cash flow bleeds on its business and it will only get worse as the volume continues to decline each and every year. At some point, letter sorting facilities and the letter carrier workforce can no longer be supported. There needs to be more and more community mailboxes and more banks of boxes in current CP retail locations like drug stores and supermarkets. I don't have a tidy reference to the trend.....as one needs to look at the Annual Reports from Canada Post each year to get the yearly stats. I am not that motivated to do so.
The situation is not unlike the filing of income tax returns where paper submissions by paper decline by 1-2 percentage points each tax year. For the 2021 tax season, only 7.9% of T1 tax returns were filed by paper, a drop from 14% as late as calendar year 2017. In less than 10 years, the number will have diminished to near zero (final T1 tax returns excepted). Individual income tax return statistics for the 2022 tax-filing season - Canada.ca
Banks have done the ROI. That is why they are closing some branches. I realize this puts some rural communities at a real disadvantage.
The challenge goes well beyond providing the service or the facility. It includes security, staffing, cash handling, audit, etc. All sorts of issues.
The real question is are retail banking or post office customers prepared to pay the increased fees necessary to offset the costs of doing business in these locations? Or...do those customers expect the service to be subsidized by the Government?
The challenge goes well beyond providing the service or the facility. It includes security, staffing, cash handling, audit, etc. All sorts of issues.
The real question is are retail banking or post office customers prepared to pay the increased fees necessary to offset the costs of doing business in these locations? Or...do those customers expect the service to be subsidized by the Government?
Ian, I think isolated northern locations, e.g. more than one hour away from the nearest location, will need some kind of subsidization to keep some functioning financial services available (beyond basic ATM operations) but they could be in existing retail operations or the federal government building located in most such communities. Anyone who currently lives, or has lived in a rural community including myself, knows that up to 100km (or one hour) of travel is not an excessive amount of travel for any basic services. Rural folk have been doing that for decades.
Often over 200kms one way for some people I know, that's the way one lives in remote areas. Would local bank access help them any when they already have to travel for just basic supplies?Anyone who currently lives, or has lived in a rural community including myself, knows that up to 100km (or one hour) of travel is not an excessive amount of travel for any basic services. Rural folk have been doing that for decades.
I used 100km (or one hour) as a reference point only for the purposes of this forum. There is nothing at all unreasonable about 100km (or one hour). For those that live further remote, that is a personal choice they made at the time and are willing to accept that distance/time to civilization already. They plan for it with "weekly trips to town". Heck... that is what we did with me growing up on a ranch in the Rocky Mountains. There was one trip to town per week where all one's business was done that needed to be done and supplies for the week or month were purchased. All that was achieved in the 2-3 hours we would spend 'in town'. By the way, that included picking up (and posting) mail from the post office box in a central postal office in town.Often over 200kms one way for some people I know, that's the way one lives in remote areas. Would local bank access help them any when they already have to travel for just basic supplies?
Too many folk in urban environments think they need daily access to almost everything when that is not the case. We only pick up our snail mail once per week from our community mailbox and we drive right by it every day when we go out for one reason or another. Why would anyone (who is not a business) need to pick up snail mail more often?
If there was a business plan, then they wouldn't need the postal unions pushing it.It is primarily that Cainvest and I don't see the business model to make postal banking work. Who is going to pay for the application, operation and management of it?
If you can come up with a plausible business plan, I am willing to listen.
What services beyond an ATM and maybe supervised notarized paperwork are actually needed.
Maybe deposting hard to scan checks?
Seeing as I haven't physically been in a bank other than to deposit checks that wont' scan in 2+ years, I don't see the problem.
The one time a year or so when I go into my urban bank branch to access the safety deposit box I get great service (during covid we did not go into the branch for two years).
Why? Because the branch is usually almost empty of customers.
We use the ATM. We deposit by scanning the infrequent cheques that come our way. We pay through the bill payment, automatic payment, or internet transfer. We transfer money on line to other financial institutions. We can do it 24X7 as it suits us, not banking hours.
Why? Because the branch is usually almost empty of customers.
We use the ATM. We deposit by scanning the infrequent cheques that come our way. We pay through the bill payment, automatic payment, or internet transfer. We transfer money on line to other financial institutions. We can do it 24X7 as it suits us, not banking hours.
This is what it is really about. Job creation/protection for CUPW. Canada Post needs to be able to implement a strategy to shrink its services commensurate with CUPW membership retiring. That will face headwinds with the Liberal/NDP socialists in power. If folks remember correctly, CP was reducing home delivery in favour of community mailboxes until the socialists got into power. It will take quite awhile (CP letter mail teetering on bankruptcy) for even socialists to accept reality.If there was a business plan, then they wouldn't need the postal unions pushing it.
I think is an example of a solution in search of a problem. As AR says, remote communities have adapted.
Some modification to the President's Choice model allowing retailer deposits to multiple banks would be a good place to start but that would not satisfy CUPW. It would have to be initiated by something like Interac. The people side could be handled by compensating the retailer for a fee.
Some modification to the President's Choice model allowing retailer deposits to multiple banks would be a good place to start but that would not satisfy CUPW. It would have to be initiated by something like Interac. The people side could be handled by compensating the retailer for a fee.
https://ca.yahoo.com/news/does-small-island-survive-without-180617252.html
Maybe this TD/CP concept can be of use here instead of BNS, the island's "bank"?
Maybe this TD/CP concept can be of use here instead of BNS, the island's "bank"?
The TD/CP concept is what we have been discussing on the deposit side with the likes of a Tangerine or Simplii, but there has to be a business model for it to pay. Neither CP nor a bank is a non-profit charity so some 'fee' arrangement would need to be paid by the user/customer. At the end of the day, what we are essentially talking about is a 'full service' ABM where cheque and cash can be deposited, bills paid and cash withdrawn. That could be located in the town hall, drug store, postal outlet or supermarket and should be good enough for an island of 2400.
However, the link is full of CBC silliness about what is inconvenient. No one has to pay 90% of one's bills at a bank or ATM. They can be on PAD and any gov't cheques coming in should be direct deposit anyway. Almost all transactional banking activity can be automated without even having to access one's bank account in any way ever from a phone, computer nor ABM. The real issue is much of the senior crowd (over 80 especially) has not moved beyond the year 2000. That will eventually resolve itself as these folks drop off the planet.
However, the link is full of CBC silliness about what is inconvenient. No one has to pay 90% of one's bills at a bank or ATM. They can be on PAD and any gov't cheques coming in should be direct deposit anyway. Almost all transactional banking activity can be automated without even having to access one's bank account in any way ever from a phone, computer nor ABM. The real issue is much of the senior crowd (over 80 especially) has not moved beyond the year 2000. That will eventually resolve itself as these folks drop off the planet.
^ I think BNS is hauling away their ATM too. Should their power go down, the folks there should be prepared to write IOUs.
Btw, ain't BNS known commonly as an "island" bank, serving market niches, particularly down in South America? I can't recall exactly but their general marketing was in that region. Now if they can't service Grand Manan up here in Canada, NB, I can't imagine what their image is for SA now. I guess it's like they (all the banks) "care".
BNS=Bank of "Nova Scotia" and there's only one Nova Scotia on this planet.
Grand Manan island - located in New Brunswick, Canada.
The irony ... LMAO.
Btw, ain't BNS known commonly as an "island" bank, serving market niches, particularly down in South America? I can't recall exactly but their general marketing was in that region. Now if they can't service Grand Manan up here in Canada, NB, I can't imagine what their image is for SA now. I guess it's like they (all the banks) "care".
BNS=Bank of "Nova Scotia" and there's only one Nova Scotia on this planet.
Grand Manan island - located in New Brunswick, Canada.
The irony ... LMAO.
Canada Post is one of 3 ways to fund Kraken with CAD (besides wire transfer and Etana custody whatever that is)
Kraken is easily the most secure and legitimate digital asset service. Kraken Bank is regulated by the Wyoming division of banking. Kraken is registered as a Money Services Business (MSB) with FinCEN in USA and FINTRAC in Canada.
As far as Canada Post becoming a bank their Canada ePost was a complete failure. They make a good fiat on-ramp for future money service businesses such as Kraken
Kraken is easily the most secure and legitimate digital asset service. Kraken Bank is regulated by the Wyoming division of banking. Kraken is registered as a Money Services Business (MSB) with FinCEN in USA and FINTRAC in Canada.
As far as Canada Post becoming a bank their Canada ePost was a complete failure. They make a good fiat on-ramp for future money service businesses such as Kraken
21 - 40 of 51 Posts
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