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Discussion starter · #23 ·
Assuming OP got the same offer from TD that I did, it is technically prime + 2% but will a 12-month intro rate of 2.99% fixed.

@OP - it sounds like you've thought it out well. So now you just have to have a really firm assumption on that whatever you buy with it will go up in the near term.
So here is the catch , I didnt notice the fixed rate is only for 12-month, thank you for mentioning that(I just checked and it is fixed for one year ) , I was planning to invest them for more than 5 years .
I think interest rate even if it go up will be very slow or else a housing crash will be ahead so I ll not cancel the idea completely.beside that National bank predict that interest rates will stay low for a many of years, new generations of Canadians are not rich as baby boomers was, few will afford to by house with high mortgage rates .
the tax benefits is my other reason , I am employee and pay a huge tax so I can deduct the interest from my taxable income.
For the guys who asked what kind of mutual funds I want to invest in , here is one of the candidates :
http://www.bmo.com/home/personal/ba...nds/growth/bmo-asset-allocation-fund/price-and-performance?params=0&pch=mf02_en
this fund seem steady , even on crashes it hurt less than others . TD also have some steady growth funds , that I might consider them too.

What this offer tells me is that they expect the interest rate to go up in 1 year.
Lets say the interest rate will go up , isn't that mean the economy is performing well , so my investment growth will go up too, It still worth it .
 
So here is the catch , I didnt notice the fixed rate is only for 12-month, thank you for mentioning that(I just checked and it is fixed for one year ) , I was planning to invest them for more than 5 years .
I think interest rate even if it go up will be very slow or else a housing crash will be ahead so I ll not cancel the idea completely.beside that National bank predict that interest rates will stay low for a many of years, new generations of Canadians are not rich as baby boomers was, few will afford to by house with high mortgage rates .
the tax benefits is my other reason , I am employee and pay a huge tax so I can deduct the interest from my taxable income.
For the guys who asked what kind of mutual funds I want to invest in , here is one of the candidates :
http://www.bmo.com/home/personal/ba...nds/growth/bmo-asset-allocation-fund/price-and-performance?params=0&pch=mf02_en
this fund seem steady , even on crashes it hurt less than others . TD also have some steady growth funds , that I might consider them too.


Lets say the interest rate will go up , isn't that mean the economy is performing well , so my investment growth will go up too, It still worth it .
The interest rate go up for several reasons. One of them is that the economy is performing well. The other reasons are and is not limited to:
-The economy is not doing well
-Forced rate hike due to USA rate hike (the worst case scenario)
-CDN Fed losing credibility

Actually, I think the interest rate lowering while the stock market is going up is a weird phenomena because bond price and stock are usually opposites of each other. Hence the 40% bond and 60% stock strategy for retired people.
 
So today I got offer of line of credit with fixed interest rate of 3% , and while the market is now growing , I thought in inversting in some safe portfolio that will give me around 7% annual growth , so I will earn 4% .
does any body tried that ?
I have done it in the past. But that was back in 2011 when market was tanking. I borrowed at the rate of 0% to 3%. I have since paid back every penny this year.
With that being said, I will never pull that again in today's environment. The upside in stocks is now limited.
Funny thing is that, back then RBC Visa would give me 0% balance credit transfer for 1 year without balance transfer fee with stated interest rate of 0%. I don't even know what they are trying to do. Do they really want me to borrow that money and spend it all and hope that I can't pay it back after the period ends? The normal rate is 19.99%. Now they jacked up the balance transfer fee to 2% with 0% interest rate for 6 months.
Anyways, I would suggest you to pick a better time to leverage up. Now it's the time to de-leverage, not the other way around.
 
Yes, but people need a home. People don't NEED to invest money that isn't theirs.
Sure you do if you're trying to build a business. Why is investing in the stock market (with borrowed money) really any different than that? If you have the cash flow to carry the debt, then, there isn't any fundamental reason not to do it. It's far more sensible than investing in over priced real estate to have a place to live, it's just that our society doesn't see it that way. If you lived in Europe or Asia, that perspective is different.
 
I use leverage but I usually employ it in markets where IMO the upside heavily outweighs the downside (ie. markets that have fallen quite a lot). In the current market I would say that the upside only slightly outweighs the downside and there are not a lot of bargains to be had.
 
Hilarious. Leveraging up to buy high fee MFs is a good way to enrich banks.
Hilarious indeed. I should buy myself more bank shares. :biggrin:

To OP:

You want to leverage a high-fee mutual fund? This tells me that your investment knowledge is not up to snuff (no offense). Slow down and learn.

Leverage *may* kill you. High fees *will* kill you. You want to combine the two? What a bad idea.
 
My niece was talked into borrowing $45,000 to max her RSP ,she did this despite needing 5 years to pay it all off and she bought all Mutual Funds.I did this in past but as one poster pointed out we had no issues carrying the debt and there were so many advantages at that time.
 
^That's disgusting. I wonder how the dirtbags who do that to people can live with themselves.
OP, if you have a house. Get a Heloc then lock 20k of it into fixed rate mortgage. Yhis is a lot better than your current deal.

Also, don't investthatin mutual fund. Buy bank preferred instead if you are that trusting of banks.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
You want to leverage a high-fee mutual fund?
I know their fees is high , but the return was 9.08 (average 5 % over years ) this year and already subtract the management fees, I already had 5000 in that fund and it gained to 5500 then I sold it to more aggressive fund . for some one like me who dont have a lot of money it is hard to have a devirsed portfolio without the help of mutual funds.

Do you have any better investment that give me a better return for the same risk level ? I personally couldn't fund some thing better than mutual funds , there are some ETFs there , but most of them their risk is above average.

OP, if you have a house. Get a Heloc then lock 20k of it into fixed rate mortgage. This is a lot better than your current deal.
Did I miss some thing ? can you show me in numbers how I am wrong if you invest it for 5 years ?
 
I know their fees is high , but the return was 9.08 (average 5 % over years ) this year and already subtract the management fees, I already had 5000 in that fund and it gained to 5500 then I sold it to more aggressive fund . for some one like me who dont have a lot of money it is hard to have a devirsed portfolio without the help of mutual funds.

Do you have any better investment that give me a better return for the same risk level ? I personally couldn't fund some thing better than mutual funds , there are some ETFs there , but most of them their risk is above average.


Did I miss some thing ? can you show me in numbers how I am wrong if you invest it for 5 years ?
I think what most people are getting at is that you may have missed the fine print about past performance does not guarantee future performance. They are also pointing out that with a high MER, you'll need to guarantee higher returns in a market environment that may not have that much upside.

Let's put it this way, given the loan rate and MER, you need an investment that pays out at least 5%, not too mention the related taxes to break even. Then in the next year, you're looking at an even higher rate due to the reset rate.
 
for some one like me who dont have a lot of money it is hard to have a devirsed portfolio without the help of mutual funds.
If you don't have a lot of money, can you afford to lose this money and wind up with more debt than equity? Would you be able to repay the loan if your bank called your HELOC? LOCs are demand loans.
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
If you don't have a lot of money, can you afford to lose this money and wind up with more debt than equity? Would you be able to repay the loan if your bank called your HELOC? LOCs are demand loans.
Yes, I will only borrow up to the amount that I can pay 50% of it in case any sharp down happened to the market , Actually I ll sit with the Bank clerk to verify the terms and conditions . but thank you for that notice.

given the loan rate and MER, you need an investment that pays out at least 5%
the Rate listed by BMO are already subtracted the MER fees , but you are right , 5% will be on edge.



OP doesn't see that and mind seems to be made up. Wasting money in fees, liability and interest to save a few pennies in tax. Sad that our financial literacy is so poor that it leads some to believe this is good for them
I appreciate all the people warned me in this thread , that is why I am post this thread , I want some input from others , and sure there are a long trip for me to learn .

Overall I am seeing many positive experience from people here who did that or knew some body who did it . I think I just need to make my calculations , and pick the right investment , and while it is the first time may be I have to reduce the amount of loan.
 
I know their fees is high , but the return was 9.08 (average 5 % over years ) this year and already subtract the management fees, I already had 5000 in that fund and it gained to 5500 then I sold it to more aggressive fund . for some one like me who dont have a lot of money it is hard to have a devirsed portfolio without the help of mutual funds.

Do you have any better investment that give me a better return for the same risk level ? I personally couldn't fund some thing better than mutual funds , there are some ETFs there , but most of them their risk is above average.


Did I miss some thing ? can you show me in numbers how I am wrong if you invest it for 5 years ?
Yep you missed something.
Your current deal is 3% fixed for 12 month and prime + 1% variable rate afterwards.

A HELOC locked into fixed mortgage rate right now is prime + 1%. At current rate, you get a fixed 4% per year for the next 5 years. (Better if you can lock in more than 5 years, which is what I did. 10 years, though I am not sure if HELOC locked mortgage is the same as a traditional mortgage where the term is legally required to be renewed every 5 years). At best, your scheme gives you a 3% for 1 year and maybe 4% for the 4 years after. So my scheme, you are paying 1% to insure that your rate doesn't go up for the 5 years of your investing period. This is basic risk free reward calculation on borrowing.

The risk of prime rate going up is very high at the moment. US fed taper is happening as we speak. FOMC meets about 8 times a year, assuming that they plan on reducing $10B per meeting, it means that they plan on tapering to $0 QE by the end of 2014. 2015 is when we see interest rate actually rising i.e. the rate that affects prime. So by this risk reward analysis, it is best to lock in a 5 year fixed rate than a variable rate if you plan on doing rate arbitrage for 5 years.

So the above is the analysis on the borrowing side which you probably have not done yet. Below is the analysis on the buying side. Let me destroy it for you.

I haven't read too much into the mutual fund past performance that you provided but 8.9% frankly laughable. The S&P did ~27% increase while the TSX did ~8.5%. Your fund did 8.9%... asset wise. Did the nice mutual fund guy told you the performance is asset wise? Unit wise, if you go back to 2007, the unit still cost $18 which is the same cost as today at $18. Which means that the asset growth has been due to dilution of issued unit due to increased investment from retail investors.

All the technical jargon aside, if there's one thing that you get out of this is this (and let's use their own graph). Dec 2007, the fund's asset is valued at $40,000 based on their graph. Today it is valued at $47,000. That's only a 17.5% increase over the last 6 years. That's a mere 2.7% per year growth. It is just a fund that tracks the index funds and took 2% from you. SPY that tracks US S&P, in the same period, gained 20%.

Listen to the others. Do the couch potato and don't let your 2% ripped off from you.

Your mind is already made up so I'll just say this with the hope that it'll sink in a bit later to help you. A decades ago, I'd think like you and without the benefit of the Internet to help me sort through my strategies. Here are the wisdoms that is imparted through this whole thread.
-You are borrowing too much vs your disposable cash according to the few financial tidbit you've disclosed.
-10% is not guaranteed return. I'd say, in my experience, mutual funds does 10% return rarely and this is probably going to be the best annual return for this mutual fund for a while.
-2% MER is too high.
 
Here's another angle.

BMO Asset Allocation is a balanced fund. 32% of the fund is allocated to bonds. Bonds are expected to return 2.5%-2.75% before fees and inflation. Subtract 2.11% MER and 2% inflation. You end up with a guaranteed negative return of 1.6%-1.4% on 32% of your invested money.

If you borrow, 32% of the borrowed amount will earn a guaranteed negative rate of return. This doesn't make any sense.
 
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