[MrMatt]

Prices are nuts, mining is insanely profitable right now, almost $7/kWh on recent GPU's

 

[sags]

The bitcoin promoters/marketers have convinced a lot of people that they must be "missing something" in the crypto story.

They know it doesn't make any financial sense, but bitcoin trudges onward and upward., so they are scratching their heads and buying some bitcoins........just in case. It is not unlike Donald Trump's relentless attacks on normalcy and decency. It eventually wore people down.

I look at it and think....for what purpose will I ever need them and can't think of any.

The ONLY reason for me to buy them is hoping to sell them for a profit in the future. I am thinking buying in at $51,000 would be bad timing.

My mama always told me.......a fool and his money are soon parted.

 

[sags]

For those interested......Congressional hearings are under way about Robinhood. It is being carried live on CNBC.

Just for info....if you have a subscription to Sirius XM you can listen to it on various devices.

 

[sags]

Just to clarify....is it the assumption of bitcoin promoters/owners that at some point in time people will be forced to use bitcoins and therefore forced to pay people for their bitcoins ?

If that is the case, I can understand bitcoins having value.......like other commodities such as oil, wheat or a rental unit to live in.

If not........where is the foundation of future value ?

 

[MrMatt]

Just to clarify....is it the assumption of bitcoin promoters/owners that at some point in time people will be forced to use bitcoins and therefore forced to pay people for their bitcoins ?

If that is the case, I can understand bitcoins having value.......like other commodities such as oil, wheat or a rental unit to live in.

If not........where is the foundation of future value ?

Well you can use bitcoin to buy a Tesla
Myself I think that the value of Bitcoin is just a shared delusion, just like fiat currency.

Ethereum, or other platform currencies have a functional us, which gives it real value What that value is is open for discussion.

 

[nathan79]

Just to clarify....is it the assumption of bitcoin promoters/owners that at some point in time people will be forced to use bitcoins and therefore forced to pay people for their bitcoins ?

If that is the case, I can understand bitcoins having value.......like other commodities such as oil, wheat or a rental unit to live in.

If not........where is the foundation of future value ?

Bitcoin gives people control over their money by removing the bank as an intermediary. You can transfer an unlimited amount of money in minutes to anyone worldwide without permission from any third party. If you try that with a bank your options are limited by daily and weekly withdrawal limits and they can decide to close your account for any reason without notice.

 

[sags]

Well you can use bitcoin to buy a Tesla
Myself I think that the value of Bitcoin is just a shared delusion, just like fiat currency.

Ethereum, or other platform currencies have a functional us, which gives it real value What that value is is open for discussion.

The price of a Tesla 3 in Canada is listed as $51,600 CAN. What is the bitcoin price ?

tesla model 3 price canada - Google Search

 

[sags]

Bitcoin gives people control over their money by removing the bank as an intermediary. You can transfer an unlimited amount of money in minutes to anyone worldwide without permission from any third party. If you try that with a bank your options are limited by daily and weekly withdrawal limits and they can decide to close your account for any reason without notice.

Bitcoins are bought and sold in USD.........so the banks are the intermediary to an exchange or payment processors.

 

[fireseeker]

Bitcoin gives people control over their money by removing the bank as an intermediary.

I struggle to understand how this is true.
Yes, the bank has been removed as an intermediary. But how is that giving people more control over their money?
There is still an intermediary -- it's the cryptocurrency itself.
A person converts a bunch of their CAD or USD into, say, BTC. Once that happens, you have ceded control over your money to the vicissitudes of BTC's valuation. (Fiat is different in that it is backed by the guarantee of the state. And original mediums of exchange -- like goats or wheat, for instance, had intrinsic value.) BTC could double, or go to zero in the time you hold it.
To me, that sounds like less control over my money.

 

[MrMatt]

Bitcoins are bought and sold in USD.........so the banks are the intermediary to an exchange or payment processors.

You can buy bitcoin with USD, but it's not the only option.

Uhh I've never bought any cryptocurrency with USD or through a bank.
You can easily go buy it cash in several local convenience stores if you want, and they take CAD$, not that I'd use them.

 

[m3s]

To me, that sounds like less control over my money.

Governments are printing trillions of fiat. What influence do you have over that?

Issuance of BTC and others is written in code well in advance. You are measuring its value with a fiat that has no intrinsic value or definitive issuance. then of course it will always fluctuate in terms of fiat

I love reading the crypto critics because it all applies to fiat and yet

 

[MrMatt]

I struggle to understand how this is true.
Yes, the bank has been removed as an intermediary. But how is that giving people more control over their money?
There is still an intermediary -- it's the cryptocurrency itself.
A person converts a bunch of their CAD or USD into, say, BTC. Once that happens, you have ceded control over your money to the vicissitudes of BTC's valuation. (Fiat is different in that it is backed by the guarantee of the state. And original mediums of exchange -- like goats or wheat, for instance, had intrinsic value.) BTC could double, or go to zero in the time you hold it.
To me, that sounds like less control over my money.

What do you mean "backed by the guarantee of the state"?
They make absolutely no claims what you can actually get for a dollar.
Just like bitcoin makes no claim what you can actually get for a bitcoin.
Neither has intrinsic value.

If I have a wallet with currency X, I can take it from my wallet, and give it to you, and you can put it in your wallet with no intermediary.
We can do this with physical currency, or most crypto currencies.

If I have some CAD, I have ceded control over my money to vicissitudes of the CAD valuation, if I exchange it to Bolivars, or Deutschemarks, then my wealth is in those currencies.

It is unlikely that a G7 currency will go to zero, because the shared agreement of value is very strong.

However if you offered me Tuvaluan dollars, I'd assign them no value.
Honestly I think Dogecoin has more real worth value than Tuvaluan dollars.

 

[fireseeker]

Governments are printing trillions of fiat. What influence do you have over that?

I have a vote.
In the history of human societies, this is a considerable power.

 

[sags]

Governments are printing trillions of fiat. What influence do you have over that?

None......except for voting for the politicans who make the decisions. The dollars they "print" are designated as legal tender and are backed by the government.

Retailers are required by law to accept CAD as payment for goods and services. There is no requirement they accept bitcoins.

What control do bitcoin owners have over the miners who control transaction fees ?

Issuance of BTC and others is written in code well in advance. You are measuring its value with a fiat that has no intrinsic value or definitive issuance. then of course it will always fluctuate in terms of fiat

So bitcoin value is based on a fiat that has no value ?

 

[fireseeker]

What do you mean "backed by the guarantee of the state"?
They make absolutely no claims what you can actually get for a dollar.
Just like bitcoin makes no claim what you can actually get for a bitcoin.
Neither has intrinsic value.

If I have a wallet with currency X, I can take it from my wallet, and give it to you, and you can put it in your wallet with no intermediary.
We can do this with physical currency, or most crypto currencies.

If I have some CAD, I have ceded control over my money to vicissitudes of the CAD valuation, if I exchange it to Bolivars, or Deutschemarks, then my wealth is in those currencies.

It is unlikely that a G7 currency will go to zero, because the shared agreement of value is very strong.

However if you offered me Tuvaluan dollars, I'd assign them no value.
Honestly I think Dogecoin has more real worth value than Tuvaluan dollars.

The state guarantees the dollar as legal tender. Practically, this means a mainstream seller in Canada must accept my payment in Canadian dollars. This is a big plus!

You are correct that those Canadian dollars can vary in value. But its long history suggests that that variance will not be dramatic from day to day or week to week. This is also a plus!

The direct wallet-to-wallet exchange you describe is appealing. I'd want safeguards to prevent money-laundering etc. But I can certainly see it as being useful.
It's just hard to see its current utility if the only medium of exchange is crypto.

 

[MrMatt]

Governments are printing trillions of fiat. What influence do you have over that?

None......except for voting for the politicans who make the decisions. The dollars they "print" are designated as legal tender and are backed by the government.

Retailers are required by law to accept CAD as payment for goods and services. There is no requirement they accept bitcoins.

No they aren't.
If they are, please cite the relevant legislation.

Lenders are required to accept CAD as payment for debt (FYI that's what legal tender actually means)

What control do bitcoin owners have over the miners who control transaction fees ?

Well you can offer however much you want for them to process your transaction.
It's up to the miners if they will accept your offer or not.

Issuance of BTC and others is written in code well in advance. You are measuring its value with a fiat that has no intrinsic value or definitive issuance. then of course it will always fluctuate in terms of fiat

So bitcoin value is based on a fiat that has no value ?

No, bitcoin and fiat are both value based on a shared agreement of value.

Lots of people agree that $4 CDN is equal to a big mac, therefore it is.
Just like for a while we agreed that one btc was $5k, now we agree it's $50k.
Barrel of oil, Fortnite vbucks, share of Tesla stock, share of Gamestop stock, 1 hour of our time.
They all have values that we agree on.

 

[MrMatt]

The state guarantees the dollar as legal tender. Practically, this means a mainstream seller in Canada must accept my payment in Canadian dollars. This is a big plus!

You are correct that those Canadian dollars can vary in value. But its long history suggests that that variance will not be dramatic from day to day or week to week. This is also a plus!

The direct wallet-to-wallet exchange you describe is appealing. I'd want safeguards to prevent money-laundering etc. But I can certainly see it as being useful.
It's just hard to see its current utility if the only medium of exchange is crypto.

When a crypto currency transaction is done, it's done.
When you cash a check, it never fully 100% clears.

That's one advantage, plus the lower fees on some coins.

 

[sags]

I pay a credit card every month directly from my bank account. It updates immediately and there are no transaction fees.

What improvement would paying in bitcoins create ? Answer.........none.

On the issue of legal tender.........if you buy something you create a debt that can be paid in CAD.

The vendor may choose to not accept a debit or credit cards due to the fees......but they will accept cash.

If I fill up my car and then go to pay in cash and the cashier says he won't accept my CAD.......I am leaving with free gas.

If they call the police....they can explain to them that I offered legal tender and they refused to accept it.

 

[m3s]

I have a vote.
In the history of human societies, this is a considerable power.

Once again, the critics clearly don't know the fundamentals of what they are criticizing.

You can vote far more often with far more power and transparency in digital currencies.. and the governance is improving

How do you think open source projects work

I pay a credit card every month directly from my bank account. It updates immediately and there are no transaction fees.

What improvement would paying in bitcoins create ? Answer.........none.

Visa makes billions a year on merchant fees. Just because they are not transparent to you does not mean they don't exist!

Why do you think visa and mastercard are getting in to crypto transactions this year? Why would they bother if there was no improvement?

Stick your head back in the sand

 

[MrMatt]

I pay a credit card every month directly from my bank account. It updates immediately and there are no transaction fees.

Every credit card transaction has transaction fee.
A relatively large one actually.

What improvement would paying in bitcoins create ? Answer.........none.

Of course, because bitcoin is the wrong tool for that job.

On the issue of legal tender.........if you buy something you create a debt that can be paid in CAD.

The vendor may choose to not accept a debit or credit cards due to the fees......but they will accept cash.

They don't have to. Though most do.

Please cite the relevant law requiring cash to be accepted for all transactions.