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^ Because someone (the OP who opened this obscene thread) has been brainwashed and now trying to brainwash others here in order to validate the legality of what he/she wants to attempt.

I hope when the OP's friends tells that jumping off a cliff will give you a longlife, he/she will do just that instead of coming over to this forum trying to convince others to follow. EOM.
 

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Discussion Starter · #82 ·
Why speculate on real estate that can't be carried on its rent?
So that's your way of saying, in your opinion, it can't be done. Right? You have no solution at all to this problem? If so that's fine. The solutions are unusual, unorthodox and may not work. They definitely involve significant risk, especially for people unfamiliar with shared accommodation and by unfamiliar I mean those that haven't actually lived in that situation themselves to experience it first hand. I personally think this is the biggest reason these ideas meet such resistance. They just seem odd.

Look, my point is many people seem to be getting into these situations or get into real estate in areas that change over time so after a while they're in a risky situation where they stand to lose everything and their back is against the wall.
 

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Discussion Starter · #83 ·
^ Because someone (the OP who opened this obscene thread) has been brainwashed and now trying to brainwash others here in order to validate the legality of what he/she wants to attempt.

I hope when the OP's friends tells that jumping off a cliff will give you a longlife, he/she will do just that instead of coming over to this forum trying to convince others to follow. EOM.
Nice of you to be so specific. This way I can't really reply to anything. Well done!

So you've given up on high cost real estate as well? Its not easy, I admit. Just wondering what you would do faced with losing your property in such a situation. Its easy to say "I wouldn't have bought it in the first place". How about a strategy? Beavers are very industrious creatures. Surely you have a plan! :)
 

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If you already own, why not sell? You shouldn't be underwater unless you refinanced. I mean, if you can only make the numbers work by running a rooming house (which is not an easy or simple proposition), what you are doing is speculating on the increase in value of the property. But, that seems kind of questionable to me when the rental yield is so low that tends to indicate that the valuation is already quite stretched and price appreciation is likely to be subdued (or perhaps negative). There are lots of potential investments out there beyond real estate in some of the most expensive markets in the country. Just as Just a Guy...
 

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Nice of you to be so specific. This way I can't really reply to anything. Well done!
... so why are you replying? Regardless, it was you who said in an earlier post, your friends have done this (with success?) so why not follow.

So you've given up on high cost real estate as well? Its not easy, I admit. Just wondering what you would do faced with losing your property in such a situation. Its easy to say "I wouldn't have bought it in the first place". How about a strategy? Beavers are very industrious creatures. Surely you have a plan! :)
... no need for a "strategy", especially yours/your friends ... an illegal one. I would be surprised the ever-so-clever one didn't have a plan (use of the property, financing, etc.) PRIOR to the purchase instead the not so smart one who would have just followed the simple plan: can't afford it, then don't buy it. Stop the scheming nonsenses ...EOM.
 

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... There are lots of potential investments out there beyond real estate in some of the most expensive markets in the country. Just as Just a Guy...
... great suggestion ... OP should ask Just a Guy ... he's the RE guru on this forum, making a killing out there on real real estate. No one can beat his "secrets", and "systems" with his super-successful RE investments ... the guy got a RE empire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #87 ·
... so why are you replying?
You responded so I'm responding. Forums kind of work like that. :)

Regardless, it was you who said in an earlier post, your friends have done this (with > success?) so why not follow.
I said nothing of the sort. What I said was that I posted this not for myself but for others starting out in real estate who live in cities with high land costs where renting normally, even renting out the living and dining rooms as bedrooms still wouldn't come close to paying the mortgage. For the people that didn't think this was possible I pointed out that I have seen several people in more than one location doing it online (renting more than one person to a room). I don't know these people.

.. no need for a "strategy", especially yours/your friends ... an illegal one.
I keep on saying the only way to do this is to abide by zoning laws. I think this is the 4th or 5th time I've repeated this. If one ignored the laws it would just be a matter of time before you'd get shut down UNLESS that area is not enforcing those laws because of high rental demand and public pressure. But it would have to have adequate fire exits and safety - that is without question. Many immigrants don't want to raise attention to themselves so they are less likely to report the landlord for safety issues. This may be what some unscrupulous landlords bank on. I'm not that kind of person. Also it often doesn't take much to make something safe for fire regulations. You have to know what is expected before embarking on this obviously. In some places this just couldn't be done.

I would be surprised the ever-so-clever one didn't have a plan (use of the property, financing, etc.) PRIOR to the purchase instead the not so smart one who would have just followed the simple plan: can't afford it, then don't buy it. Stop the scheming nonsense ...EOM.
Why do you think I ask questions here? To learn! Also during discussion often new ideas emerge we can use in situations we hadn't planned. I just find discussion very good for business. Others look at our ideas with a different perspective which can shed new light on our plans and be very helpful.

Think of how some people do so well in real estate: Its often because they find value in places that others didn't; by not giving up even though they didn't see a solution immediately.

Remember, I didn't claim this was some foolproof strategy. I simply ASKED if people are considering doing something unusual to generate more revenue. That's it. Or if they've heard about it. Clearly, in this group, so far, nobody has. That's fine. Maybe someone else will pipe up later. That's how forums work. Patience is rewarded.

Look, nobody would do this kind of strategy unless their back was against the wall - that is clear. Its a management headache to be sure, requiring a lot of hands on attention. I'm not saying its easy or even desirable.

I wonder if a highly populated residence might work better as a Homestay situation where food is included. That way everyone isn't crowding the kitchen. They text in their orders and its done for them. People pay a lot more for Homestay scenarios. Often 40% more. I might be on to something! Homestay also might be a lot more efficient if done on a larger scale. Perfect for a stay at home person that likes food prep and people in general.

And of course there's no way this could work during COVID.
 

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... And of course there's no way this could work during COVID.
... what a mobius strip. Sum it up for you - this wouldn't work even PRIOR to Covid.

I suggest you seek out the OP santi in post #67, he/she is a Mortgage Expert licensed in BC / SK, Real Estate Investor and Enthusiast (in waiting) so I'm sure you can get the help you need.
 

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Discussion Starter · #89 ·
Sum it up for you - this wouldn't work even PRIOR to Covid.
Ah....people are doing it right now. I've been telling you this for days. Not a lot of people but significant numbers. A lot more in Vancouver than in cheaper cities of course. I didn't check Toronto but it inevitably done there too. Just check rentals at a little lower than what a shared room normally goes for. In cheap cities its usually $400-550 but in Toronto its probably $600-800. So you'd filter the price from $250-500 to spot them. At first they look like single occupancy....but obviously nobody, especially an immigrant fighting for each penny saved, would ever rent for 30-40% less than normal prices.

Now whether its legal in their area I do not know. Or maybe the city there doesn't care or doesn't bother to prosecute. But its definitely being done.

I suggest you seek out the OP santi in post #67, he/she is a Mortgage Expert licensed in BC / SK, Real Estate Investor and Enthusiast (in waiting) so I'm sure you can get the help you need.
Appreciate the tip. I don't understand your use of the term OP (original post or poster?) here as I'm the originator of this thread. I did find post #67 where it was suggested to look at resort property. That is different to be sure. But in most parts of Canada nobody wants to go to a resort property for about half the year! Personally I'd love to live/manage one though. This would be great for a tropical destination if one could deal with the customs/culture/taxes there. I'm sure many expats buy a house and rent out a room or two dipping their toes in the water, then gradually expand the house, later buying/building a small hotel if they don't die first. At least most countries in the tropics have little in the way of zoning restrictions. That would be pleasant.

But I've found realtors to be surprisingly uncreative though I have to admit I haven't interacted with very many. Every one so far has the creativity of a rock. They're like robots blabbering the same recycled scripts we've heard a million times before. As soon as they suspect you are not going to be an "easy customer" they kind of tune you out and their attention drifts to their phone hoping for a more conventional, predictable customer. I suppose if I was shopping in more affluent circles the grade of realtor would be much higher as well. Maybe the business is extremely structured so it doesn't draw in creative types.
 

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I wasn't going to respond, but I will play because I think the OP is just playing as they have indicated they are a retiree with lots of money and I don't think he is really that stupid to listen what I am going to say.

Random considerations & assumptions to see the feasibility (will be dependent province, by laws, ect.).
- Many areas have laws on what the minimum square footage required per person in a living space. It's often a combination of the specific size of the room along with other living spaces. Most take out the kitchen area, bathroom, hallways out of the equation. Each living area must also meet certain requirements such windows/or more than one escape route. There are also laws about having hot plates and cooking appliances in not kitchen areas. You can't just have a person put in a hot plate.

  • So let's say you have a 2000 sq ft house, with 1500 square appropriate space (easy numbers). We will assumer each person needs 150 square feet ( I have seen some as high at 180, but I am not an expert) then you could have 10 people in this house. If the rent for this house was $3000K plus utilities you may be able to get $500 a person, I would even say less, as I am basing the rate on how much someone would have to pay for a basement suite which this is worse then. So you would get an extra $1500 or so (after higher utilities)
  • Running the numbers for an apartment or condo would be worst. In an apartment there are many more rules to follow and higher likely hood of someone complaining.

- Next consideration is finding the house place to do this. Any rental lease I have ever signed requires landlord approval of any changes of people living there including roommates, etc. . My leases also have a provision that is someone is there for more than 2 weeks in the month as a 'guest', they must notify us. There is also a maximum number of people listed that can occupy the place along with the maximum number of 'guests' at any time. I cannot imagine any landlord knowingly agreeing to let someone have a rooming house. So that would mean that you would have to buy your own home or place to do this.

- As the owner of the place, there is an insurance requirement. On rentals, every few years you must fill out a disclosure on the number of tenants that you have living in a place along with a whole bunch of other information such as if there are multiple families living in the dwelling. That determines your rates. A couple of our rentals have legal basement suites, the rate goes up if you have someone upstairs and downstairs, and that's legally. More people, more cooking areas, equates to higher risks.

  • Let's look at the type of people you will get into these places. Many people will be lower income as higher income people will not want to subject themselves to such an environment. So the type of people you may get are
  • Young people just moving out: Students - the ones that are serious about their education (the ones that you want) will want a place that is quiet so they can study, they won't want to share their room. Young people in general on their own are usually not very clean, quiet, or that responsible. Unless you are living with them and can 'herd' them along, I would not leave a larger group of young people who are not students in anything I owned.
  • People who aren't at home very often with the main reason they are not home very often is because they are working. You don't want someone who isn't home often because they are our partying. This probably someone who either works shift work (in which they will want someone on a similar schedule, so they can sleep without people stomping around while they are trying to sleep, so that will be a difficult logistics piece. You may also people who have other accommodation for their work. My former live in nanny rented a room in a rooming house for a few months. She said it was okay when it was a few of her friends that all did it (they were also nannies), then when others come in, the drama hit, things started going missing, and it was really difficult from a schedule wise. My dad also lived in a room house when he first arrived in Canada 60 years ago (less legislation, would be illegal now). I was same guys that manage to get off the boat together. One of them knew someone who had a place, and there up to 7 or 8 of them all sleeping in a 2 bedroom, so they could send save and send money home. This this brings us back to primarily immigrants starting out or unruly students. It most definitely helps if the people know each other and like each other.

So looking at this, there are so many factors to try to get them to align with a lot of risk. There would be a lot of work involved to make a couple thousand a month. I have experience in rentals, and this would be would an absolute nightmare for me personally. I have been considering for years of buying a place for my kids when they leave for university to live in and manage as low cost housing, and experience. I know many people that have done this in the past, and even in a shared accommodation, there are a lot challenges. I would never want to live in a rooming house even if I owed it, nor would I want my kids too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #91 ·
You make some very good points. My responses below.......
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I wasn't going to respond, but I will play because I think the OP is just playing as they have indicated they are a retiree with lots of money and I don't think he is really that stupid to listen what I am going to say.
No. I've said that I didn't post this specifically for myself. I'm interested in the subject, yes, but this was posted for a couple of people interested in getting into real estate but they live in areas where it can be difficult to meet mortgage payments with the rental income unless the landlord is very resourceful. And I've said I don't know if it would be legal in most cities. And I've repeatedly stressed the necessity of being fire safe.

Random considerations & assumptions to see the feasibility (will be dependent province, by laws, etc.).
Of course.

- Many areas have laws on what the minimum square footage required per person in a living space. It's often a combination of the specific size of the room along with other living spaces. Most take out the kitchen area, bathroom, hallways out of the equation.
That's what I assumed. It does seem logical. Its good to hear though.

There are also laws about having hot plates and cooking appliances in non-kitchen areas. You can't just have a person put in a hot plate.
Depends how its installed. If its bolted to a steel bracket and that steel bracket is bolted to the wall its very secure. For that type of install its legal in my city. It may not be in other areas. But common sense would dictate the landlord would be wise to minimize cooking equipment as much as possible. I think the problem is usually grease catching fire from people frying. If we could just ban frying pans the place would be so fire safe!

So let's say you have a 2000 sq ft house, with 1500 square appropriate space (easy numbers). We will assume each person needs 150 square feet ( I have seen some as high as 180, but I am not an expert)
In my poorer city the average seems to be around 100-120 sq ft.

then you could have 10 people in this house.
How are you doing this? How many people are you allocating to each room? And doesn't the city care if there are a lot of people packed into a room? Or are they just looking at sq footage, in this case being 1500? So that's just for the bedrooms? You say each person needs 150 sq feet. Where are these 10 people being housed? I would be very surprised if this was legal in most cities. It seems very congested as a 2000 sq ft house is probably a 3 or 4 bedroom layout. I thought 2 to a room might be doable in most areas, 3 to a room in a few. Any more than that I thought you'd have to be out of town where nobody checks or even cares. Like farmland.

If the rent for this house was $3000
That seems kind of high but in high priced areas I suppose not.

plus utilities you may be able to get $500 a person, I would even say less, as I am basing the rate on how much someone would have to pay for a basement suite which this is worse then. So you would get an extra $1500 or so (after higher utilities)
In the ads I've seen in expensive areas they're getting about $300-450 with several people to a room. Probably 3 or 4.

Running the numbers for an apartment or condo would be worst. In an apartment there are many more rules to follow and higher likely hood of someone complaining.
Oh definitely.
But there are advantages to apartment buildings/condos: Coming and going is noticed less because nobody hangs out in the hallways. I was living next to several people (I heard later it was 8!) in a 1 br apartment for about 2 years and had no clue. I rarely heard anything from that side and they never made any noise to speak of. I never in 2 years saw them enter or leave the apartment. That's the apartment building advantage. When people see others come and go at the front door they don't know what floor they're going to let alone which unit unless they happen to live nearby. In a house you have to leave by a door and most doors are visible by neighbors. Unless you're smart and cagey and put hedges/trees around blocking the view! People are much less obtrusive if they come and go from the back door usually.

Next consideration is finding the house place to do this. Any rental lease I have ever signed requires landlord approval of any changes of people living there including roommates, etc. .
Good point. Definitely finding a cooperative owner can be challenging. In my city I know someone who listened to my suggestions and within 3 months had secured 2 houses. I would never advise someone starting out to go with 2 as you can't be in 2 places at the same time but one of them he advertised for immigrant female students and they gave him no headaches so he hardly ever had to be there. Lucky break I guess. The other one was in a rougher area of the city and though the profit potential was far higher there, the headaches also were far higher there. Obviously its best to start with just one location until its really running smoothly. Now I should mention he was just re-renting the house to make a little and live free originally. But then he got the 2nd one which was probably a mistake.

My leases also have a provision that if someone is there for more than 2 weeks in the month as a 'guest', they must notify us.
Yes, that is common. Makes sense. People can "slide in" quietly if you're not on top of things. If they drive/park their car nearby its harder to be unseen though.

There is also a maximum number of people listed that can occupy the place along with the maximum number of 'guests' at any time. I cannot imagine any landlord knowingly agreeing to let someone have a rooming house. So that would mean that you would have to buy your own home or place to do this.
Oh it definitely happens but I'm presuming that the owner is one who is sick of managing the place and is letting someone take care of things because they have developed good trust in them. Or....the owner is going to vigilantly check up on the place as its filling up to make sure there is no damage. But you're right: Finding someone that is OK with this scenario is the hardest part of making it work and it would be far easier if you owned the place.

- As the owner of the place, there is an insurance requirement. On rentals, every few years you must fill out a disclosure on the number of tenants that you have living in a place along with a whole bunch of other information such as if there are multiple families living in the dwelling. That determines your rates. A couple of our rentals have legal basement suites, the rate goes up if you have someone upstairs and downstairs, and that's legally. More people, more cooking areas, equates to higher risks.
Makes sense from an insurance standpoint. About how much more was it if there were say double the people there compared to before?

Let's look at the type of people you will get into these places. Many people will be lower income as higher income people will not want to subject themselves to such an environment. So the type of people you may get are
young people just moving out: Students - the ones that are serious about their education (the ones that you want) will want a place that is quiet so they can study, they won't want to share their room.

You're thinking of typical Canadians. But that's not the demographic these landlords are seeking. None are looking for born in Canada Canadians. At least I haven't found any yet. No, they are seeking work til you drop, new immigrant students, bent on making a success of their new life here. People that go to school full time and work full time sleeping 4-5 hours a night, 7 days a week for months without a day off because they also work weekends. Canadians cannot fathom making sacrifices like that. (I sure wouldn't!) People like this, first of all, are hardly ever home. They'll use the library to study probably as its roomier and they have research materials right there. And its at school close to other things as well. School/work/sleep. That's their life til they have their degree. Then they may work 2 jobs out of university to buy a house to look more appealing to their prospective, procreating wife! How they meet anyone to start a family boggles the mind. But they do.

Young people in general on their own are usually not very clean, quiet, or that responsible.
Canadians, absolutely. But many immigrants are far more disciplined.

Unless you are living with them and can 'herd' them along, I would not leave a larger group of young people who are not students in anything I owned.
Yes, I've also repeatedly stressed the importance of living at your property so you're on top of any problems when they arise and can nip them in the bud as soon as possible. And when people are living congested problems will arise.

People who aren't at home very often with the main reason they are not home very often is because they are working.
Or working and going to school. Or working multiple jobs. Once again you're referencing 40 hour a week Canadians. These people don't slouch around like that. Some work 2 full time jobs during the week and something else on the weekends. My head would explode if I had to do that.

You don't want someone who isn't home often because they are our partying.
These people don't even mentally grasp such a concept as partying.

This is probably someone who either works shift work (in which they will want someone on a similar schedule, so they can sleep without people stomping around while they are trying to sleep, so that will be a difficult logistics piece.
Now you've hit on a very important and challenging aspect of multiple people per room. Noise. Not everyone likes earplugs and even earplugs only lower the volume. They don't block noise at all. And they cause problems like wax buildup if used every night and probably are linked to Tinnitus with long term use. Earplugs are not a solution.

What would be a solution is a soundproof sleeping chamber for each person. There's nothing commercial out there at a reasonable cost so you'd have to use recording room soundproofing techniques to make them. Basically a box within a box with a clever entrance way and ventilation from outside bringing in fresh air through sound absorbing ducting. Not easy but not impossible. Lots of info is available for soundproofing ductwork since inline fans need to be suppressed in most buildings. Pot growers also employ these techniques to hide their growup from people close by. But then people could sleep undisturbed at any time of the day, no matter if people were talking right beside the bed. They need to be rigged up with an alarm of some sort though to wake people in the event of an emergency. Not difficult. You could stack these probably at least 3 high, perhaps 4. And as they are soundproof you could dedicate one room just for sleeping for everyone if you could rig up the ventilation. And the ventilation would have to work if the power went off so a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply used for computers) would need to be used. And 2 fans for each in case one malfunctioned. Air would be exhausted outside as well of course or maybe it could just seep out through the cracks in the room. As long as fresh air is being pushed into each compartment it wouldn't really matter. This would also be excellent for shift workers or graveyard workers. Having one room just for sleeping (that could also be soundproofed a little) is a really interesting concept. Another room could be a work area. Just long tables with ethernet connections (as well as WiFi) and AC connections. You could supply large monitors for people to plug in their tiny laptops so they don't have to squint at their little screens. You can buy 24" monitors for about $50 used now! They even have phones out (high end only for now) that you can plug in your USB keyboard/mouse and big monitor. I think Samsung was the first last year. This is totally the future. Imagine going to a coffee shop or restaurant alone and just plugging in your phone/life and be immersed in a big screen. Most people would be fine with using their own earbuds I think. And with virus concerns nobody would be comfortable sharing headphones anyway.

You may also people who have other accommodation for their work. My former live in nanny rented a room in a rooming house for a few months. She said it was okay when it was a few of her friends that all did it (they were also nannies), then when others come in, the drama hit, things started going missing, and it was really difficult from a schedule wise.
She sounds Filipino and Filipinos tend to have a high degree of trust for others coming from that culture. I'm guessing the new people weren't Filipinos and didn't have the same degree of honesty or allegiance to the people there. I did mention the need for some sort of secure storage for everyone. Something like a heavy duty locker. You could use video surveillance but few people would be comfortable with that and it would be illegal without everyone's consent. When people steal the food of others its a real pain though. So petty and irritating. Maybe you'd have to employ small fridges that are shared amongst 2 people, with a lock. If something is stolen at least you know who it was!

My dad also lived in a rooming house when he first arrived in Canada 60 years ago (less legislation, would be illegal now). It was the same guys that managed to get off the boat together. One of them knew someone who had a place, and there up to 7 or 8 of them all sleeping in a 2 bedroom, so they could save and send money home. This this brings us back to primarily immigrants starting out or unruly students. It most definitely helps if the people know each other and like each other.
Culture bonding can be very useful. You cite a very important example of how they were determined to put money aside and saving on accommodation really helped them do that. Also, if someone comes to Canada without education (and even educated people often need years of qualifying accreditation!), starting a business is the most logical thing they could do, especially if they don't speak English and came here when they were older so learning the language is a very arduous task they try to avoid by just associating with their own culture here. Think of the corner store. Everything is displayed and priced - no talking is necessary. Money/numbers is an international language.

So looking at this, there are so many factors to try to get them to align with a lot of risk. There would be a lot of work involved to make a couple thousand a month. I have experience in rentals, and this would be would an absolute nightmare for me personally. I have been considering for years of buying a place for my kids when they leave for university to live in and manage as low cost housing, and experience. I know many people that have done this in the past, and even in a shared accommodation, there are a lot challenges. I would never want to live in a rooming house even if I owed it, nor would I want my kids too.
Like I said, you start conventionally and try unconventional things and if they don't work discontinue them. For most situations though, in reasonably priced cities, just renting out the living room can often pay for the rent along with the bedrooms. Just adding 1 room (especially as a living room is quite a bit larger so it would rent for more) can make a huge difference to the bottom line.

The point is to live free AND have control over the house, especially the outdoor area which could be all yours really. If you like doing things around the house outside this could be a huge factor.

Start with re-renting and if you can make it work legally and it doesn't fry your mind, THEN buy a house.
And if you're buying a house, it might be best to look at one that needs a lot of work and priced appropriately but that has a cooperative layout (with rentable rooms that have windows or could have windows) so you don't have to use a room to get somewhere else. Like many living rooms are used to get to another room. Can't have that. If one was doing a lot of renovating you could do so many things to raise the rental revenue and make it better. The simple truth is a lot of homes now (especially open concept styles) wouldn't work at all for this because you need to segregate spaces and parents want to keep an eye/ear on their children at all times. So its the opposite of what we would want: Total soundproofing between each bedroom. If you were renovating you could make it the way you want, for maximum revenue. You just have to have a good idea of what everything will cost! Best to be a very pessimistic buyer.
 

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^ This seems like an alien hypothesizing about human habitation of residences. You are a human right?

The only time I think something along these lines could work is a person buying a home and living in one room, while renting the other rooms in the home to other young singles/couples for short tenancies (likely 1-2 years). More than one person per bedroom not romantically involved is, I think, bonkers. Maybe a single parent and a child, though I'm not sure that's even legal.

Most extreme I have seen is something like a crash pad for airline workers who just need somewhere to sleep in another city. But it is not their primary residence.
 

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Discussion Starter · #93 ·
This seems like an alien hypothesizing about human habitation of residences. You are a human right?
It appears so, yes. But I'll have to confirm and get back to you on that.

The only time I think something along these lines could work is a person buying a home and living in one room, while renting the other rooms in the home to other young singles/couples for short tenancies (likely 1-2 years).
Well of course that's the way its usually done. Mortgage helpers I think they're called. But if they don't rent out other rooms like the living or dining rooms (if they have a window for a fire escape) then they're not really extracting anywhere near what they could. Remember that as an owner you have use of other rooms that cannot be rented due to no window or fire escape and so its not as if you have to pack your entire existence into your bedroom. Using a desk/bed combination would save a lot of space as well if your layout permits. Either like this if you have the ceiling height:


or a Murphy type bed (usually better if mounted horizontally on the wall instead of the usual vertical fashion) or a slideout or pull-out bed (the best for space, especially if you have a low ceiling)


or


The wheels on the last one were ridiculously big! And the floor area on top wasn't oriented logically. It should be along the wall, not perpendicular to it. Then it wouldn't need to be so deep. Fine if you've got a king size bed under there!

Another option is to have a very narrow mattress and flip it up against the wall under the bed when not in use during the day. The point is a bed wastes a huge amount of space during the day. Another space saver if no desk is there is to place the bed in the middle of the room on a frame with drawers/shelves under it. Sleep close to the ceiling, say at the 6' level. Below that you would have about a 7' x 5' space by say 5 levels equaling 35 x 5 = 165 sq ft of storage about 1' tall. That's a LOT of space for your stuff as long as its under 1' tall. Think of floor area that is about 13' x 13'. But its yours so you can adjust the height as you see fit for each shelf. A shelf 2.5' deep is very manageable. Most people stuff their bed against the wall so if they have under bed storage the bins need to be very long and that's awkward. Much better is accessibility from each side.

Couples argue and arguing is noisy. And couples expect to pay only slightly more for 2 people to a room compared to one. They just will never pay much more because usually they never have to. Just the way our society works.

More than one person per bedroom not romantically involved is, I think, bonkers.
I know it seems odd. No question to most Canadians. But other cultures are quite comfortable with it. And they're doing it all over the world, including cities in Canada. If you know Indian or Pakistani people ask them and you'll see. Its very common in their culture. They're not doing it for a lifetime. Just til they get on their feet. For most probably a year or 2 at most. Then they get into a house. Canadians can take 20 years of working/saving before they get into a house. Who's smarter? Think of the waste of money paid in rent for those 18-19 years! And when most immigrants get a house they get one within their means so its paid off much faster, especially with ambitious mortgage helpers, whereas a Canadian sometimes spends as much for interest as the price they paid for the house.

Maybe a single parent and a child, though I'm not sure that's even legal.
Yeah, zoning gets more rigorous when children are involved. But what would be terrible about that is the noise. Kids are noisy and parents are noisy around kids. I would never have kids in a situation like this in a million years. The quietest ages, say about 8-10 would be the best if one was to try. Best to probably just stay away from people with children.

Most extreme I have seen is something like a crash pad for airline workers who just need somewhere to sleep in another city. But it is not their primary residence.
Ha! You bring up another good point: I wonder if this would work as a temporary residence, say for 5 days a week then they go back to the country where the family stays on cheap property? They don't commute far for 4 days a week and the wife doesn't worry about them fooling around because she probably knows the people there. Another possibility!
 

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No. I've said that I didn't post this specifically for myself. I'm interested in the subject, yes, but this was posted for a couple of people interested in getting into real estate but they live in areas where it can be difficult to meet mortgage payments with the rental income unless the landlord is very resourceful. And I've said I don't know if it would be legal in most cities. And I've repeatedly stressed the necessity of being fire safe.
In my city, it is legal but there is a much higher standard of care required to keep it legal than just being a landlord There was a hefty charge and fine for a couple of landlords a few years ago that ran rooming houses. One had a fire, though they met the space legislation, people had dies and the landlord was fined almost $100k, with the possibility of criminal charges. There's been a few case as such.

Depends how its installed. If its bolted to a steel bracket and that steel bracket is bolted to the wall its very secure. For that type of install its legal in my city. It may not be in other areas. But common sense would dictate the landlord would be wise to minimize cooking equipment as much as possible. I think the problem is usually grease catching fire from people frying. If we could just ban frying pans the place would be so fire safe!

In my city, you cannot have anything that is intended for cooking or food prep without an immediate washing area (regulations for that). That includes hot plates, griddles, toaster ovens, waffle irons, panini presses, or item that can be converted as such which included a clothes iron, hair irons above a certain temp, etc 😂 They had pretty strict guidelines i guess because people can be pretty creative.

In my poorer city the average seems to be around 100-120 sq ft.

How are you doing this? How many people are you allocating to each room? And doesn't the city care if there are a lot of people packed into a room? Or are they just looking at sq footage, in this case being 1500? So that's just for the bedrooms? You say each person needs 150 sq feet. Where are these 10 people being housed? I would be very surprised if this was legal in most cities. It seems very congested as a 2000 sq ft house is probably a 3 or 4 bedroom layout. I thought 2 to a room might be doable in most areas, 3 to a room in a few. Any more than that I thought you'd have to be out of town where nobody checks or even cares. Like farmland.


I said that i took a rough number. In almost all cases I looked up, you can have multiple people IF room meets a certain square foot for the sleeping area AND the total minimum square footage per person of livable space is met. I was just doing simple math based on your wild assumption of being creative that you would some how other rooms in to legal bedrooms. My numbers where the max if you were able to meet all the other criteria. If someone is out of town, they are still considered in the numbers. Whether someone checks or cares is irrelevent if you are following the laws which was the criteria.

That seems kind of high but in high priced areas I suppose not.
In the ads I've seen in expensive areas they're getting about $300-450 with several people to a room. Probably 3 or 4.


I have looked into this. You stated in areas that are expensive to buy in, so the rents are high. I find you are switching different parameters that don't match which makes this impossible to come up with something logical if you move around your facts. You can get several people to a room unless they meet the bedroom size minimum.

But there are advantages to apartment buildings/condos: Coming and going is noticed less because nobody hangs out in the hallways. I was living next to several people (I heard later it was 8!) in a 1 br apartment for about 2 years and had no clue. I rarely heard anything from that side and they never made any noise to speak of. I never in 2 years saw them enter or leave the apartment. That's the apartment building advantage. When people see others come and go at the front door they don't know what floor they're going to let alone which unit unless they happen to live nearby. In a house you have to leave by a door and most doors are visible by neighbors. Unless you're smart and cagey and put hedges/trees around blocking the view! People are much less obtrusive if they come and go from the back door usually.

If it's a well run condo, they won't allow it. Most condo even have their own by laws for occupancy and it's lower than the municipal ones. They also have more restrictions and more people sharing walls which will lead to complaints. In a house, you neighbors may get mad, but again, if you are following the law, there is no problem. You bring up cagey things, but still say you are following the law. Which one is it?

Good point. Definitely finding a cooperative owner can be challenging. In my city I know someone who listened to my suggestions and within 3 months had secured 2 houses. I would never advise someone starting out to go with 2 as you can't be in 2 places at the same time but one of them he advertised for immigrant female students and they gave him no headaches so he hardly ever had to be there. Lucky break I guess. The other one was in a rougher area of the city and though the profit potential was far higher there, the headaches also were far higher there. Obviously its best to start with just one location until its really running smoothly. Now I should mention he was just re-renting the house to make a little and live free originally. But then he got the 2nd one which was probably a mistake.
Oh it definitely happens but I'm presuming that the owner is one who is sick of managing the place and is letting someone take care of things because they have developed good trust in them. Or....the owner is going to vigilantly check up on the place as its filling up to make sure there is no damage. But you're right: Finding someone that is OK with this scenario is the hardest part of making it work and it would be far easier if you owned the place.


I think the owner probably doesn't care as they are slum lord and just wants the money. Ironcially, one of the cases in which the owner was charged, he tried to deny that he knew anything about it. Still got charged.

Makes sense from an insurance standpoint. About how much more was it if there were say double the people there compared to before?

I have not idea, i think the risks go up exponentially and therefore the insurance will reflect it. When we had a single roommate to share our 2 bedroom, there was no increase, same with when we have a friend share the basement suite (they weren't cooking) When we added cooking facilities there, I think it went up about 25%, that was the same when we had a friend, then their boyfriend, and another time a family. When my tenants took over our place and started rented and add 2 families without our knowledge, in the same basement, it was getting to a different type of insurance. We kicked out the squatters.

young people just moving out: Students - the ones that are serious about their education (the ones that you want) will want a place that is quiet so they can study, they won't want to share their room.

You're thinking of typical Canadians. But that's not the demographic these landlords are seeking. None are looking for born in Canada Canadians. At least I haven't found any yet. No, they are seeking work til you drop, new immigrant students, bent on making a success of their new life here. People that go to school full time and work full time sleeping 4-5 hours a night, 7 days a week for months without a day off because they also work weekends. Canadians cannot fathom making sacrifices like that. (I sure wouldn't!) People like this, first of all, are hardly ever home. They'll use the library to study probably as its roomier and they have research materials right there. And its at school close to other things as well. School/work/sleep. That's their life til they have their degree. Then they may work 2 jobs out of university to buy a house to look more appealing to their prospective, procreating wife! How they meet anyone to start a family boggles the mind. But they do.
Or working and going to school. Or working multiple jobs. Once again you're referencing 40 hour a week Canadians. These people don't slouch around like that. Some work 2 full time jobs during the week and something else on the weekends. My head would explode if I had to do that.

These people don't even mentally grasp such a concept as partying.



Most foreign students are on a special student visa that limits the amount of work they are allowed. Many of them have to show assets of how they are going to support them selves while in studies. Most are very limited to the amount of work even part time work they are allowed. You may get some but these student are more like school, study, sleep and would want somewhere quiet that is there own. We have family and friends that have boarded foreign students or were one themselves. Most of them cant work for pay as students. They do work hard, but they also want their space. They also seem to game alot.


Now you've hit on a very important and challenging aspect of multiple people per room. Noise. Not everyone likes earplugs and even earplugs only lower the volume. They don't block noise at all. And they cause problems like wax buildup if used every night and probably are linked to Tinnitus with long term use. Earplugs are not a solution.

What would be a solution is a soundproof sleeping chamber for each person. There's nothing commercial out there at a reasonable cost so you'd have to use recording room soundproofing techniques to make them. Basically a box within a box with a clever entrance way and ventilation from outside bringing in fresh air through sound absorbing ducting. Not easy but not impossible. Lots of info is available for soundproofing ductwork since inline fans need to be suppressed in most buildings. Pot growers also employ these techniques to hide their growup from people close by. But then people could sleep undisturbed at any time of the day, no matter if people were talking right beside the bed. They need to be rigged up with an alarm of some sort though to wake people in the event of an emergency. Not difficult. You could stack these probably at least 3 high, perhaps 4. And as they are soundproof you could dedicate one room just for sleeping for everyone if you could rig up the ventilation. And the ventilation would have to work if the power went off so a UPS (Uninterrupted Power Supply used for computers) would need to be used. And 2 fans for each in case one malfunctioned. Air would be exhausted outside as well of course or maybe it could just seep out through the cracks in the room. As long as fresh air is being pushed into each compartment it wouldn't really matter. This would also be excellent for shift workers or graveyard workers. Having one room just for sleeping (that could also be soundproofed a little) is a really interesting concept. Another room could be a work area. Just long tables with ethernet connections (as well as WiFi) and AC connections. You could supply large monitors for people to plug in their tiny laptops so they don't have to squint at their little screens. You can buy 24" monitors for about $50 used now! They even have phones out (high end only for now) that you can plug in your USB keyboard/mouse and big monitor. I think Samsung was the first last year. This is totally the future. Imagine going to a coffee shop or restaurant alone and just plugging in your phone/life and be immersed in a big screen. Most people would be fine with using their own earbuds I think. And with virus concerns nobody would be comfortable sharing headphones anyway.


I dunno even know what so say about this. I will leave it to you. There are so many things wrong with this whole set up. Building codes as define what wall is, so that might become a problem for the chambers. You cannot stack people up in the room without proper clearance and access. You are now renovating the house into a bunk house which I take my kids to camp for, and even what you are saying is worst than that. Now you are talking about how the people should live and function. I just have to say, this one above part, I could write paper on all the things wrongs.

She sounds Filipino and Filipinos tend to have a high degree of trust for others coming from that culture. I'm guessing the new people weren't Filipinos and didn't have the same degree of honesty or allegiance to the people there. I did mention the need for some sort of secure storage for everyone. Something like a heavy duty locker. You could use video surveillance but few people would be comfortable with that and it would be illegal without everyone's consent. When people steal the food of others its a real pain though. So petty and irritating. Maybe you'd have to employ small fridges that are shared amongst 2 people, with a lock. If something is stolen at least you know who it was!

The new people were also the same culture, people sometimes dont get along even if they are the same culture. People are people




Like I said, you start conventionally and try unconventional things and if they don't work discontinue them. For most situations though, in reasonably priced cities, just renting out the living room can often pay for the rent along with the bedrooms. Just adding 1 room (especially as a living room is quite a bit larger so it would rent for more) can make a huge difference to the bottom line.

The point is to live free AND have control over the house, especially the outdoor area which could be all yours really. If you like doing things around the house outside this could be a huge factor.

Start with re-renting and if you can make it work legally and it doesn't fry your mind, THEN buy a house.

And if you're buying a house, it might be best to look at one that needs a lot of work and priced appropriately but that has a cooperative layout (with rentable rooms that have windows or could have windows) so you don't have to use a room to get somewhere else. Like many living rooms are used to get to another room. Can't have that. If one was doing a lot of renovating you could do so many things to raise the rental revenue and make it better. The simple truth is a lot of homes now (especially open concept styles) wouldn't work at all for this because you need to segregate spaces and parents want to keep an eye/ear on their children at all times. So its the opposite of what we would want: Total soundproofing between each bedroom. If you were renovating you could make it the way you want, for maximum revenue. You just have to have a good idea of what everything will cost! Best to be a very pessimistic buyer.

Nothing wrong with sharing costs. But what you have even suggested is well beyond that. You asked the question what do people do in expensive areas. Here's the thing, it is not a right for someone to buy a house in an expensive area if they can not afford. it.
 

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... Depends how its installed. If its bolted to a steel bracket and that steel bracket is bolted to the wall its very secure.
I thought that stove with an oven would be secure but one renter managed to start a fire.


... You're thinking of typical Canadians. But that's not the demographic these landlords are seeking. None are looking for born in Canada Canadians. At least I haven't found any yet.
I doubt they care as long as what they want is met and they are paid on time.


... Canadians cannot fathom making sacrifices like that. (I sure wouldn't!) People like this, first of all, are hardly ever home.
I know several so YMMV.


... Or working and going to school. Or working multiple jobs. Once again you're referencing 40 hour a week Canadians. These people don't slouch around like that. Some work 2 full time jobs during the week and something else on the weekends. My head would explode if I had to do that.
OOH ... it was one job. OTOH ... a Canadian I know was working seventy hour weeks for almost three years.


... Start with re-renting and if you can make it work legally and it doesn't fry your mind, THEN buy a house.
The only owner I know that would have gone for the re-rent was trying to get me to be his junior partner. The others were already taking care of renting out. Times change and others have differnt luck so it may work out.


Cheers
 

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cm2u, I would think by now you would realize that there's not a whole lot of support here on CMF for your idea. Plugging Along has shown extreme patience in setting out some of the "cons", at length. There are not many offsetting "pros".

As PA, and some of the rest of us have pointed out, the ideas you advance are beset by obstacles related to zoning regulations, health and safety regulations, insurance issues and more. However, if you (or whoever you have in mind) can find a place where you can legally implement the ideas you have put forth here, then go ahead. You did say at the outset that it all has to be legal, and some of us have difficulty in seeing how much of what you propose could be legal anywhere, except perhaps out in the sticks. But, you said at the start that you idea was intended to be implemented in "expensive areas".

...
Nothing wrong with sharing costs. But what you have even suggested is well beyond that. You asked the question what do people do in expensive areas. Here's the thing, it is not a right for someone to buy a house in an expensive area if they can afford it.
I think perhaps PA intended to say that it is not a right for someone to buy in an expensive area if they cannot afford it. I trust PA will correct me if I am mistaken. But it would seem to go almost without saying that, if your cannot afford a place, then don't buy it.

The first house I ever bought was a triplex in the Kitsilano area of Vancouver. My wife at the time and I were students. We had no money. We could not get (never even tried to ask) bank financing. We got the vendor to finance the house (at 11% interest...the going rate at the time). We lived on one floor and rented the other two. Actually, the basement was not much. That area was zoned for duplexes, and most (like ours) contained illegal basement suites. We initially rented the basement to two, unrelated, people. One was there when we bought and he stayed for a year or two. He was Greek and spoke no English. He would simply appear at our door once a month and pay his rent of $90 in cash. On Sundays, he would be in his room in the morning a play Greek music at a fair volume and smoke. The smoke would enter our floor, but we coped. The other room we rented to a UBC law student for a couple of years. When both moved out, we rented to a married couple.

We did not particularly enjoy life there, but it served its purpose. We wanted to be in a single-family house. We bided our time. We also wanted to be where lots were larger. Kits lots like ours were typically 33' x 110'. Each housed, effectively, 3 dwelling units. So the local population density was fairly high. Each house typically had live-in owners and 2 suites rented and each house could require parking for as many as 6 cars. Most of that parking had to be on the street. The street was always lined on both sides with cars and parking was quite competitive. It was somewhat noisy; lots of coming and going.

In time, we sold at a profit and bought a sf house in MacKenzie Heights. Houses there now go for about $3 million, if land value only, and up to about twice that for a newer house. By just about any yardstick, an "expensive area". Believe it or not, those houses sell every day. No shortage of folks who can afford them. I dare say, not many of those would be welcoming of the house next door being converted to the use you propose. They would not expect such a thing, not what they moved to an expensive area to find.

This is nothing new. When we lived there, after a few years, the house next to us on the south side changed hands. Before long, the new owners were installing windows in the basement on the side facing us. I suspected a basement suite being created. Before long, our neighbours confirmed that suspicion. They explained it by saying that was the only way they could afford their mortgage. I held my tongue and refrained from asking "Then why the %$# did you buy a single-family house in this area?"

However, it was not long before I came hope from work one day to find the woman who had moved into the basement suite up in our apple tree, in our side yard close to her suite. She was happily picking our apples. She thought I had not seen her and she froze, to the branches stopped moving. I was nonplussed; not sure how to respond. Not what I expected in staid MacKenzie Heights. So I said nothing and pretended I did not see. But was she undeterred? Nope, a few days later, she returned for more.

That was enough for me. I phoned city hall. Vancouver policy concerning illegal suites at the time was to act on complaints. They sent out an inspector and ordered the unit closed and the kitchen taken out. My neighbour - obviously unaware of the source of his difficulty - actually came to me for legal advice, asking how, or if, he could fight the closure order. I pretended to be wholly sympathetic, while delivering the bad news that "You can't fight City Hall" and he might as well surrender, which he did.

So you might encounter a few curmudgeons like me along the road to your flophouse dream.
 

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^. thanks MP. I corrected at least the one type. I am sure there are many. I was just playing and having some fun in responding as it’s really awful idea.

the short answer to how do people buy in expensive areas that they can’t afford - they don’t or shouldnt is more correct.
 
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I am more than a little stumped by OP's view that immigrants are completely different from Canadians and won't make messes, smoke, be noisy and do all the things people do in their homes. People are people.
 

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^ I think what OP is getting at is there are some cultures where sharing Tight living spaces are more common, and people are willing to sacrifice more. There is a difference in terms of space expectations of Canadians vs some other countries in general. That being said, OP is making a lot of generalizations and I believe he thinks they can be exploited more easily. Which sadly can be true.
 

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Sure ... but I haven't seen the immigrants as being all that one size fits all.

Because of how he grew up, my Indian co-worker even when in a rooming house insisted on a room to himself. He and his wife lived in apartments for a long time before buying a house eventually. The parents visiting for months at a time were the only additional people in the house.

Another rented a room where friends/family visiting for the weekend was okay but other than that, it was one person in the room. Moving into a house was the by-product of getting married to a Canadian that already owned one.

Several that have most of the rooms full have only family in the house (i.e. brothers, sisters, parents, with spouses and kids).


Cheers
 
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