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Trump won 'fair' and 'square'. The electoral college gives for the second time in five elections the presidency to the loser (less popular support).
Except that's not how "loser" is defined. Having more figures on the board of chess does not mean you won a game.
 

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He gets to be president, but with an asterisk. People nattering about him having a mandate for his agenda are trying to bury the fact that Hillary had more support.
 

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My friend doesn't believe that the protests are premature.

I always thought that the electoral college was designed to safeguard against the election of a tyrant but I was mistaken. He tells me that it was a compromise with Georgia, Virginia, and the Carolinas so that they could prevent an abolitionist. It must sting African Americans to see the electoral college create a Trump victory.
 

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The popular vote whining is a non-issue, and here is why. First of all, the margin was very tiny, 0.2% in favour of Hillary compared to the relatively large electoral college win for Trump. Second, the popular vote is irrelevant because that is not how the game is played. For instance, claiming victory for Hillary would be like overturning the results of a Super Bowl because the losing team had more total passing yards. If the rule was popular vote wins, then the campaigns would have been totally different. Candidates would have basically only had to campaign in major population centres and ignored the rest of the country. To win the election all of your policies could be pro-city and anti-rural and thus have the most popular support. The electoral college necessitates appealing to a wide variety of Americans, and it gives rural America a voice. Incidentally rural Americans having a voice led to a Trump victory.
 

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he popular vote whining is a non-issue,
It's true that tactics of both candidates would be different (for popular vote), but not true that "Candidates would have basically only had to campaign in major population centres and ignored the rest of the country.", as "rest of the country will decide the outcome. I'm familiar a lot with elections in Israel (popular vote) and all candidates concentrates even less on campaign in major cities like Tel Aviv, Haifa or Jerusalem and more on the rest of the country
 

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I think the protesters are wasting their time and energy, but it is their right in a democracy.

It is a little rich for the Republicans to be complaining about political decorum after dogging Obama non stop since 2008.
 

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Discussion Starter #47 (Edited)
Today on the train back from work, I ran into a group of Jewish young adults (wearing baseball caps with Hebrew lettering). They explained to me how Trump supports neo-Nazis.

Here's an article by an expert on racism in America. He describes how Trump feeds the racists
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/28/donald-trump-is-the-new-face-of-white-supremacy/

For those of you who don't understand the protests, I suggest you do more reading until you get to a point where you understand WHY the protests are happening. Anybody with a basic education and reading skills should be capable of understanding the viewpoint of the protesters. You don't have to agree with them, but you should understand why they are upset.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
sags, would you fight to protect your wife and child? Excerpt from the above article, bold for emphasis to illustrate that Trump is perceived to be a threat to individuals. This is why they protest and fight.


I sincerely doubt Trump really wants to be president of the country and submit himself to the art of the compromise that is politics in the real world. He just wants to win to feed his massive ego. But who knows how many hate crimes he will inspire in the process. It should be noted that Trump is widely popular on the racist Stormfront discussion board. Stormfront is the primary place white supremacists and Neo-Nazis meet and registered members have been linked to almost 100 murders.
. . .
But there is no better example of the failed model of racist, sexist masculinity than Donald J. Trump. He is an artifact of the past and he wants to drag the country back to it. The man’s rhetoric directly affects the security of my family. The thought of someone hating my wife and child (or attacking them) because they want to “make America great again,” is frightening. When was Trump’s America great? In 2008, when the Great Recession started? In 1954, before the passage of Brown vs. the Board of Education? In 1860, before the start of the Civil War? America is better than Donald Trump, but I fight against him for the safety of my family.
 

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Referencing Counrerpunch is no better and possibly worse than referencing Zerohedge. Firstly, it's run by Cockburns. The father Cockburn was a member of the Communist party during Stalin's times. That's like being pro-Nazi during Hitler's times in some way because of the scale of their crimes. Moreover he worked with Soviet agents and helped to orchestrate acts of violence against antiSoviet left.

Secondly, Counterpunch regularly publishes Antisemitic screeds by Holocaust denying Gilad Atzmon, who promotes Elders of Zion. Counterpunch vigorously supports Neo nazi Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel, who was expelled from Canada and is doing time in Germany. Counterpunch regularly publishes articles by Weir, who claims that Jews engage in ritual murders. Counterpunch also publishes articles by the Russian agent, Holocaust denying antisemite who goes under the pseudonym Israil Shamir (one of his many names, the man is not Jewish).

It's a far left version of Stormfront.
 

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Tried to read the actual article but couldn't get passed the claim that Trump is the new Father Coughlin. The latter was a Catholic Nazi propagandist from Canada, a vigorous supporter of Adolf Hitler. Coughlin advocated violence against Jews. It's egregious comparison, no reasonable person would make the claim.
 

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I think the protesters are wasting their time and energy.
How can you say that? Not a waste of time, except for the true haters. Most have legitimate reasons for protesting such an outcome, which might influence some political decisions. But democrats are refusing to take any blame for the loss by pretending their candidate was flawless. In politics, especially when a country is hungry for change, experience does not translate into victory, have we not witnessed that before as recently as 2008?

Blame it on Comey, on the unfair media, blame it on gender even when women voted for Trump in large numbers, blame it on Trump supporters, blame it on anyone else but themselves. The country justifiably wanted change, and maybe democrats would have won had they elected a candidate with less political liabilities. Even before Sanders and Trump became a laughable threat at first, democrats were so sure America owed Clinton the presidency, because she was a woman, because Americans could get "two for the price of one", because she had been addicted to politics and in everyone's face for decades so she was the most qualified in US history. If they keep it up, Trump could be a 2 term President. Even Beyonce was not ready for a woman president in 2008, only in 2016, LOL. Same could be said about the way famous "white" personalities voted in 2008.

This woman is right. http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/11/11/muslim-immigrant-woman-votes-donald-trump-nr.cnn

And yup, Americans failed Clinton. :drunk:
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/12/hillary-clinton-we-failed-her-sarah-churchwell
 

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Globe&Mail published a verbose piece which is just nuts. In it Tabatha Southey is claiming the following:
I do know that humans do awful things. I’ve read my history. Right now, it feels as if I’m rereading one of the more unfortunate bits. Well done, America. I can report that we in Canada are feeling a little Austria, 1933, right now.
The idiotic rant is typical of social media but I would have expected better from something that calls itself a newspaper.
 

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No matter who would have won the election there would have been protests. It is just a time for protests. You have people that want change & those that do not want change. Maybe the states that want Hillary to be their president should break away.

I guess living next to the US is rubbing off on us Canadians. Some of us want to tell the US who should run their country. Should we be like war hungry Hillary who has supported every war while she was in politics the US is famous for over throwing governments.
 

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Anyone not worried is dumb or nuts or evil. Having said this, Trump hasn't done anything yet. Not known for a fact what he will try to do. And if he tries, it's questionable what exactly he can achieve. In summary, the panic seems premature and thrashing property has no excuse.

US survived LBJ and Nixon, both virulent racists, and alt right is tiny compared to KKK at their heyday.
Tell me where you get this idea LBJ was a racist?
 

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Tell me where you get this idea LBJ was a racist?
1. He used the word "******" a lot. Discussing civil rights legislation with men like Mississippi Democrat James Eastland, who committed most of his life to defending white supremacy, he’d simply call it “the ****** bill.”

2. He voted against the anti-lynching bill.

He subsequently enacted a civil rights bill during his presidency, which shows that we never know what to expect.

Source: https://www.amazon.com/Master-Of-The-Senate-Johnson/dp/0394720954
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/the-relentless-conservative/the-democratic-partys-two_b_933995.html
 

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sags, would you fight to protect your wife and child? Excerpt from the above article, bold for emphasis to illustrate that Trump is perceived to be a threat to individuals. This is why they protest and fight.


I sincerely doubt Trump really wants to be president of the country and submit himself to the art of the compromise that is politics in the real world. He just wants to win to feed his massive ego. But who knows how many hate crimes he will inspire in the process. It should be noted that Trump is widely popular on the racist Stormfront discussion board. Stormfront is the primary place white supremacists and Neo-Nazis meet and registered members have been linked to almost 100 murders.
. . .
But there is no better example of the failed model of racist, sexist masculinity than Donald J. Trump. He is an artifact of the past and he wants to drag the country back to it. The man’s rhetoric directly affects the security of my family. The thought of someone hating my wife and child (or attacking them) because they want to “make America great again,” is frightening. When was Trump’s America great? In 2008, when the Great Recession started? In 1954, before the passage of Brown vs. the Board of Education? In 1860, before the start of the Civil War? America is better than Donald Trump, but I fight against him for the safety of my family.
You have convinced all of us-your life is going right down the tubes-our condolences-SUCKS TO BE YOU.
 

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No matter who would have won the election there would have been protests. It is just a time for protests. You have people that want change & those that do not want change. Maybe the states that want Hillary to be their president should break away.

I guess living next to the US is rubbing off on us Canadians. Some of us want to tell the US who should run their country. Should we be like war hungry Hillary who has supported every war while she was in politics the US is famous for over throwing governments.
The alliances that the US entered into after WWII have been the basis of peace in the world.These alliances are NATO and alliances with
Japan ,Korea,Phillipines ,Australia. The US was the chief opposition of the USSR during the Cold War. When Ronald Reagan
stood at the Brandenberg Gate and said "Mr. Gorbachev,tear down that wall!" it was an inspirational call heard round the world.

There was a real danger of nuclear world war but fortunately the US and its allies prevailed and the Soviet Union collapsed. A great danger was averted.It was good the West won,not the other guys. When the Berlin Wall fell it was a great day for humanity. The doomsday clock moved dramatically back from midnight.There is some merit in Samuel Huntington's idea of the clash of civilizations.

There was room for optimism with the collapse of the USSR in the early nineties. Now, Russia has reverted back to its traditional belligerence and confrontation between large blocs is in store.

The US system of free markets spread to China ,India and many other countries. Socialistic central control was discarded.
Prosperity and globalism increased. That was attributable to American capitalism underwritten by American military force.

Do you have something better?
 

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The popular vote whining is a non-issue, and here is why. First of all, the margin was very tiny, 0.2% in favour of Hillary compared to the relatively large electoral college win for Trump. Second, the popular vote is irrelevant because that is not how the game is played. For instance, claiming victory for Hillary would be like overturning the results of a Super Bowl because the losing team had more total passing yards. If the rule was popular vote wins, then the campaigns would have been totally different. Candidates would have basically only had to campaign in major population centres and ignored the rest of the country. To win the election all of your policies could be pro-city and anti-rural and thus have the most popular support. The electoral college necessitates appealing to a wide variety of Americans, and it gives rural America a voice. Incidentally rural Americans having a voice led to a Trump victory.
In other words, it's okay that the system is lacking in democratic legitimacy because it gives results I like. To frame your comments in another way, you believe it is good and right for rural people to have votes that count for more than urban (and "urban") people. Urban should be about 3/5ths of rural?

Even if this was the intent of the electoral college, it is remarkably ineffective. It makes most states irrelevant to the presidential contest, including most of the large ones. California, NY and Texas only play a role as sources of cash, they do not influence the result.

More people supported Hillary's agenda. Trump does not have a mandate for wholesale change. Congress should not allow themselves to be bullied by the idea of a Trump mandate because he won the presidency. He does not have the tide of public opinion behind him. Hopefully there are enough reasonable Republicans in congress.
 
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