Canadian Money Forum banner

41 - 60 of 71 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,504 Posts
A little common sense on the part of the victims might go a long way to reducing losses from fraud.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,713 Posts
Simple? Not simple? Take the money above XXX and buy a cashable GIC. You can also ask a hold to be placed on the account. End result.....you’ll probably be facing a few NSF charges the next time you look at your account,
I think you mean a non-cashable GIC? In that case yes ....that would block someone from getting early access to the money.

So I can actually put a hold on some my accounts? As in, money can only be deposited and not withdrawn until I release the hold?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,968 Posts
Reading the details of this scam, it's a very rough situation for the victim. It would not have been easy for her to figure out this was a scam.

I feel really bad for her. I would not call her stupid.

With the fake arrest warrant and documentation provided, the claims the scam artists made (that they were a secret state police) would have been believable. There are also many Chinese state operatives (police & spies) operating in Canada, so this would really terrify the victim ...
I disagree ... what made it work was the secrecy and assuming the Canadian system worked the same way.

Heck ... calling the consulate from a separate phone may have been enough to expose it.


With so many hacks - having the info doesn't mean much IMO.


Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,276 Posts
In any event, the banks aren't going to start reimbursing people if they claim they were defrauded.

That would open the floodgates to false claims.

I feel bad for people but basically they are SOL.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,968 Posts
... since the banks are so certain that this woman wasn't a victim then they should start an investigation, I agree ....
Where does it say the banks think she wasn't a victim?

What I see in the articles are the banks saying she provided bogus info to their questions, negating the chance of catching it.


... Good thing you reminded me about the "holds" ... funny enough, the banks need to hold your cheque for 5 days that's written from another chartered bank in the event it's forged ... and yet wire-transfers in thousands of dollars go instant because someone lied (under duress)...
For me, the bigger issue is when the bank says it's good, after the hold is done then confirms it is bogus and potentially raids other accounts to get back their loss.



... Let me sum it up - the banks do whatever they see fit, advantageous for themselves... including internal thieveries that they'll deny and fight you all the way until you need to lawyer up at YOUR OWN EXPENSE FOR STILL YOUR FAULT. I guess you never hear those too-bad stories.
I hear from co-workers more of the good stories like the one who had his bank account cleaned out while outside the country. When he reported it, the bank returned his money.


Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,968 Posts
In any event, the banks aren't going to start reimbursing people if they claim they were defrauded ...
YMMV ... the bank had no problem putting back my co-worker's money.
It's also called multiple people at work to say they account/CC was compromised so they are sending new cards.

I have also pointed out how I had a confirmation number for a bill payment that didn't get made and they fixed it, including interest.


Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,634 Posts
I disagree ... what made it work was the secrecy and assuming the Canadian system worked the same way.

Heck ... calling the consulate from a separate phone may have been enough to expose it.
I think you're wrong about that and are looking at it from your perspective, instead of a recent Chinese immigrant's.

I do agree that calling the Chinese consulate would have been a good idea.

But how the Canadian system functions doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant. There are Chinese spies in Vancouver. There are Chinese cops looking around for people and reporting back to their federal government. The Chinese state is known to aggressively hack personal devices, so it's possible (she would think) they already infiltrated her phone and know everything she's doing. She had a reasonable fear of getting into more trouble if she contacted Canadian authorities.

It's a very Canadian thing to say, why didn't she just call the police? Yes, WE trust the police, we trust our government too. [aside: why do you think I get so angry at Trump and the Republicans for trying to ruin western democratic government and move to a third-world dictatorship model?]

But it's not the same for Chinese, especially those with Hong Kong links. The government is not their friend, and they also know the Canadian government/police can't protect them from Chinese authorities.

For Chinese or HK people, it's terrifying, frankly. @Eclectic12 you and I have the privilege of not ever having lived under those kinds of regimes, experiencing terrifying oppression, etc. It's unfair to blame this woman for her reasonable emotional response to the situation she was in.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,695 Posts
...
I hear from co-workers more of the good stories like the one who had his bank account cleaned out while outside the country. When he reported it, the bank returned his money.

Cheers
... of course you would since they can easily prove your out-of -country friend wasn't even at a Bay St ABC branch emptying his own bank account.

However, when the fraudster/thief is a bank employee him/herself who lifted your money in the country, then it's a whole different story. For a start, how do you prove you didn't go to the ATM yourself when you noticed some missing funds from your account? You're guilty until proven innocent by the bank in this case and be prepared to hire a lawyer to retrieve your funds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
Discussion Starter #51
I think you mean a non-cashable GIC? In that case yes ....that would block someone from getting early access to the money.

So I can actually put a hold on some my accounts? As in, money can only be deposited and not withdrawn until I release the hold?
We allowed that at TD. But again, someone impersonationg you could just ask for the hold to be removed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
Discussion Starter #52
... of course you would since they can easily prove your out-of -country friend wasn't even at a Bay St ABC branch emptying his own bank account.

However, when the fraudster/thief is a bank employee him/herself who lifted your money in the country, then it's a whole different story. For a start, how do you prove you didn't go to the ATM yourself when you noticed some missing funds from your account? You're guilty until proven innocent by the bank in this case and be prepared to hire a lawyer to retrieve your funds.
Wow. It sounds like you think employee rtheft is rampant and sophisticated. It 100% is not. And by the way, much, much easier to steal from the bank, than from the bank‘s customers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,732 Posts
Discussion Starter #53
I think you mean a non-cashable GIC? In that case yes ....that would block someone from getting early access to the money.

So I can actually put a hold on some my accounts? As in, money can only be deposited and not withdrawn until I release the hold?
I was thinking you would want access at any time above the Xxx funds. Theft from investments is extremely rare. I never came across it once. They go after the easy money sitting in chequing/savings accounts and prefer to deal with the least experienced employees in the branch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,968 Posts
I think you're wrong about that and are looking at it from your perspective, instead of a recent Chinese immigrant's.
I do agree that calling the Chinese consulate would have been a good idea.

But how the Canadian system functions doesn't matter -- it's irrelevant ...
Somehow, the PR who didn't have citizenship figured a similar scam out.


... It's a very Canadian thing to say, why didn't she just call the police? Yes, WE trust the police, we trust our government too ...
And did you notice I didn't say "call the police"?


... @Eclectic12 you and I have the privilege of not ever having lived under those kinds of regimes, experiencing terrifying oppression, etc....
So I guess I dreamed having to skip the taxis as the revolutionaries were shooting out the tires and taking an ox cart to the airport, only to find out there were no flights?

Or how about dad's co-worker being thrown in jail for turning left as that day, it was illegal?
Bear in mind that if they hadn't have found him - there would have been no meals as family/friends provide for inmates, not the gov't.


Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
I think you're wrong about that and are looking at it from your perspective, instead of a recent Chinese immigrant's.
But j4b, she had been in Canada for 12 years when all this started. And quite young (around 30) when she came here. For how long does she get to say she's a "recent immigrant" and that her thinking is the product of living in a harsh and oppressive regime (which, incidentally, is one to which many elect to return after securing Canadian citizenship)?

And that's assuming she is not herself one of the perps, who claims to have sent money to fraudsters, when maybe she's in on a plan to try to get money out of the banks. There are some peculiarities about her story, as reported.
21326
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19,634 Posts
But j4b, she had been in Canada for 12 years when all this started. And quite young (around 30) when she came here. For how long does she get to say she's a "recent immigrant" and that her thinking is the product of living in a harsh and oppressive regime (which, incidentally, is one to which many elect to return after securing Canadian citizenship)?

And that's assuming she is not herself one of the perps, who claims to have sent money to fraudsters, when maybe she's in on a plan to try to get money out of the banks. There are some peculiarities about her story, as reported.
Good points overall, yes. I did not realize she had been in Canada for 12 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,726 Posts
I agree, it's not the banks ultimate responsibility. They can only help, educate, etc. so much. One can now purchase cyber insurance that includes social engineering schemes. Not all policies are created equal (buyer beware), some may include call back provisions / exclusions, etc. Cyber coverage is relatively new so the banks, insurance companies, agents / brokers, etc. need to help spread the word as it's only going to worse (smart homes, smart cars, etc.). I purchased a policy for my business a few years back and we regularly educate our employees.

If your house burns down and you have no insurance you have nobody to blame but yourself. If you choose to except the risk, self insure, etc. don't complain when the **** hits the fan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,968 Posts
... of course you would since they can easily prove your out-of -country friend wasn't even at a Bay St ABC branch emptying his own bank account ....
And the out of country is about 10% of the total with the rest being in Canada .... but don't let that interfere with your thinking. :)


... However, when the fraudster/thief is a bank employee him/herself who lifted your money in the country, then it's a whole different story. For a start, how do you prove you didn't go to the ATM yourself when you noticed some missing funds from your account? You're guilty until proven innocent by the bank in this case and be prepared to hire a lawyer to retrieve your funds.
If it's been a bank employee, the bank didn't admit to it for those who have been re-reimbursed without a lawyer being involved.

For better or worse, that's been the case for those I know. I must be lucky to not know the many others you are talking about who have to involve lawyers.


Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Reading this thread is interesting. I had to get a money order to pay for my car and TD did ask me a bunch of questions. The only one I remember was them asking if I trusted the receiver of the money. I said yes...but I was still nervous making the money order since I then realized that all my dealings on the car was online, through email and telephone.

Anyway, looking back at the experience the questions were too technical and legal speech for most people - I'm a technical person, so I understood the reason for the questions. I think maybe they need to use more colloquial language. For instance:

"Please make sure that you are not being scammed"
"There are lots of scams going on. If you've been told not to tell anyone, then it's a scam."
"If you haven't met the people you are sending money to, then it may be a scam"
"If you need help to make sure it's not a scam, we can have someone help you verify. You will be safe."

Notice, I used the word "scam" in all the questions. The banks questions were to protect themselves come to think of it and not necessarily to help me. Even giving a non-technical pamphlet to the person after the transaction may help them reconsider their actions.
 
41 - 60 of 71 Posts
Top