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You do see the catch 22, right?

Where the scammers have coached the victim for what to say and to avoid talking to anyone else where the victim goes along with it - there is almost no possibility for a bank rep to find out or to get the victim to reconsider what they are doing.


Cheers
... no Catch-22 here when it's clear the banks are calling the shots no matter what the customer claims. Ie. nothing improves or in your case, no need for improvement. Just hope you don't fall victim to fraud (very unlikely as you're too smart).
 

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Discussion Starter #22
... fair enough.

What about that ON Support For Families program fraud, 400 accounts opened with 10,000 cheques made out to them ... not a single tranaction here and no red flag until what ... 6 months later? when it goes on the news of course.
Don’t know how that one slipped through. I fired a woman once who was involved in a chewing account scam. She opened a couple dozen accounts on a Saturday under Various names. Within a week, I got a call from Corp security.
I haven’t followed that story too closely, but I wonder...if they were ripping off benefit cheques, is it possible the accounts were registered in dozens of different names? Or do we know if the accounts were all opened in just a few (or one) name(s)?
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Sure it does.

But sending $10k around isn't all that unusual.
We didn’t report any transactions over $10,000 except CASH transactions. Perhaps the others were automated behind the scenes.
 

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This whole story doesn't make sense and the banks simply cannot replace the money, because people will be lined up down the street with a similar story demanding the bank pay them.

I was conned and sent money to China.....so, you can go ahead and replace it for me.

LOL...........yea, okay.
... fraud is not resorted just to this story, sags. There're so many (and types) that surpass all your digits (fingers & toes).
 

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... fraud is not resorted just to this story, sags. There're so many (and types) that surpass all your digits (fingers & toes).
Yes but there unanswered questions in this story......just from the interview.

She said her father sold his business and sent her the money so they could buy a condo for them to live together. The money would have paid the condo in full.

She was working as a retail employee in a jewellery store in Vancouver.

She said she was in the process of buying the condo when she sent all the money to China.

And yet, later in the story she said the bank is foreclosing on her mortgage because she lost her job and can't make the mortgage payments.

So........she went ahead and bought the condo in Vancouver after losing all the money that was going to pay for it ?

Where in Vancouver are there two bedroom condos for $300,000 ?

Would she qualify for a mortgage as a store clerk ?

She said the fraudsters disappeared after all the money was gone.

How did they know it was all gone ?

Too many questions to assume this woman was a victim, without an investigation.
 

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... no Catch-22 here when it's clear the banks are calling the shots no matter what the customer claims. Ie. nothing improves or in your case, no need for improvement. Just hope you don't fall victim to fraud (very unlikely as you're too smart).
I don't know how the bank can be any more responsible. It is a catch 22. They asked the questions, she answered and lied. She also when to multiple banks. What else do you expect them to do? Should a bank hold MY money longer to protect me? How long is long enough?

I had a bank hold my funds that I was trying to transfer to our lawyer for one of my properties, because it was a larger amount and I had very quick close. They some how screwed up so badly that I almost lost the purchase. It was in the name of protecting me. I manage my parents accounts. The bank has help funds to what I believe is an unreasonable amount time. They said they put extra security because I am just a POA and the bank needs to protect my 'vulnerable' parents. This has resulting in me personally paying for some of their bills or transferring money from my account to help them, and then have my dad jump through hoops to try and get me the money back. In the end, moved all of the accounts from dads name to joint with me to make it easier. I still have jump through hoops to access my mom's funds. Do you think that my dad's money was safer when I was banking as a POA with the bank monitoring, or now that all the accounts are also under my name?

Here's a thing I have taught my senior dad who doesn't speak english and my kids.
1. Don't answer the phone with someone you don't know, they will call back if important.
2. When you call back, look up the company on the internet for the number or call me, since my dad doesn't have internet. I will go through the corporate directory found on the corporate home page
3. No one is going to try and arrest you, charge you are deport you. If they are, all me, and we will lawyer up. Always threaten with legal counsel.
4. If they have person information, call me, and I will contact all the companies including equifax, and transunion and change everything.
5. No one will ever ask for money on the phone, via text, or email legitimately,
6. If any one calls for personal information to verify you, tell them you will call them back see #2
7. Tell them you will turn yourself in at the police station or what ever official agency they are calling from.

I feel awful for the person. Criminals do prey on the immigrants and the vulnerable. I have had my poor nanny call me in tears because of one of these calls. I told her when she worked with me to just put them through to me. That usually stops them in their tracks.

People need to look out for themselves and stop blaming banks.
 

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... no Catch-22 here ...
Good to know ... I guess this means I can put you down as a bank customer who when trying to wire five to six figures to buy a warm weather property would be happy hear the teller say:

"It's the first time you have wired money to that country, it's an incredible amount of money - there's more questions you need to answer to show you aren't being scammed. It usually takes another five to fifteen minutes."

Presumably you'd reply that you were happy the FI was protecting you, that you would be happy to spend the time answering as many questions as are deemed necessary and that you weren't at all insulted about the FI poking into your personal life. :)


I know far more that would be upset.


... when it's clear the banks are calling the shots no matter what the customer claims.
The customer in this case lied and probably would have kept lying. What's the bank going to find that will reveal that the customer is being scammed?


... Ie. nothing improves or in your case, no need for improvement.
You seem confused.
Saying the gov't has to legislate it across the board is confirming the need for change, n'est pas?
Granted, it is a subtle implication.


... Just hope you don't fall victim to fraud (very unlikely as you're too smart).
I do my best ... but nobody is perfect.


Cheers
 

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At some point we need to stop blaming others for our mistakes, look long and hard in the mirror, and accept responsibility for our own actions. It is not always 'someone elses' fault.
^^ This.

Not sure if this is currently possible but it would be nice to setup at the bank a flag that says "Block all withdrawals or transfers out of any of my accounts greater than X dollars until I explain the reasons why".
 

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This is a clear case of YCFS (You Can't Fix Stupid). As already discussed herein, most customers would tell a bank employee to FO if the employee asked many, if any, questions on use of funds. There is only so far a corporate entity, e.g. bank, can go before invading privacy and those are relatively well established with FINTRAC, etc.

I know from family members who are in bank branch management that they will sometimes intervene gently with long time customers if that customer is doing (wants to do) something unusual, particularly if that customer's behaviour seems unusual or is known to be potentially vulnerable, but ultimately the customer's rights cannot be denied (beyond regulatory requirements). Members here who suggest otherwise simply do not understand rights and obligations.
 

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Reading the details of this scam, it's a very rough situation for the victim. It would not have been easy for her to figure out this was a scam.

I feel really bad for her. I would not call her stupid.

With the fake arrest warrant and documentation provided, the claims the scam artists made (that they were a secret state police) would have been believable. There are also many Chinese state operatives (police & spies) operating in Canada, so this would really terrify the victim.

I don't think the banks could have flagged it either. There is a lot of money moving around between Canada / China / Hong Kong, with many wealthy Chinese in Vancouver. Large money transfers are routine. I bet that bank employees routinely see Chinese people come in and wire around tens of thousands of $ between these countries.

Unfortunately I think it was a really good scam, really top notch.
 

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Yes but there unanswered questions in this story......just from the interview.

She said her father sold his business and sent her the money so they could buy a condo for them to live together. The money would have paid the condo in full.

She was working as a retail employee in a jewellery store in Vancouver.

She said she was in the process of buying the condo when she sent all the money to China.

And yet, later in the story she said the bank is foreclosing on her mortgage because she lost her job and can't make the mortgage payments.

So........she went ahead and bought the condo in Vancouver after losing all the money that was going to pay for it ?

Where in Vancouver are there two bedroom condos for $300,000 ?

Would she qualify for a mortgage as a store clerk ?

She said the fraudsters disappeared after all the money was gone.

How did they know it was all gone ?

Too many questions to assume this woman was a victim, without an investigation.
... since the banks are so certain that this woman wasn't a victim then they should start an investigation, I agree. Maybe she belongs to that ring of scammers herself ... and would be even dumber enough to have her name splashed all over CBC.

FYI ... banks are hardly fault-free and there're plenty of other scam stories where the status quo remains ... easier job to just shove it under the rug.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/unexplained-bank-fraud-1.5359805
 

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Discussion Starter #35
... since the banks are so certain that this woman wasn't a victim then they should start an investigation, I agree. Maybe she belongs to that ring of scammers herself ... and would be even dumber enough to have her name splashed all over CBC.

FYI ... banks are hardly fault-free and there're plenty of other scam stories where the status quo remains ... easier job to just shove it under the rug.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/unexplained-bank-fraud-1.5359805
Ho hum. Non-story. Do you think banks are purposely trying to avoid returning funds. There’s a difference in these stories. In the first one, the account holder requested the transaction. In your example, she did not. It can take some time to conduct a fraud investigation. A month isn’t unusual. It’s more complex than your example makes it sound.
want to know whats more common? People saying they didn’t make a withdrawal at a certain time and place. Then we show them video at the ATM or teller....and they say...oh, I guess I was wrong. THAT actually happens more than actual frauds.
 

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I don't know how the bank can be any more responsible. It is a catch 22. They asked the questions, she answered and lied. She also when to multiple banks. What else do you expect them to do? Should a bank hold MY money longer to protect me? How long is long enough?

I had a bank hold my funds that I was trying to transfer to our lawyer for one of my properties, because it was a larger amount and I had very quick close. They some how screwed up so badly that I almost lost the purchase. It was in the name of protecting me. I manage my parents accounts. The bank has help funds to what I believe is an unreasonable amount time. They said they put extra security because I am just a POA and the bank needs to protect my 'vulnerable' parents. This has resulting in me personally paying for some of their bills or transferring money from my account to help them, and then have my dad jump through hoops to try and get me the money back. In the end, moved all of the accounts from dads name to joint with me to make it easier. I still have jump through hoops to access my mom's funds. Do you think that my dad's money was safer when I was banking as a POA with the bank monitoring, or now that all the accounts are also under my name?

Here's a thing I have taught my senior dad who doesn't speak english and my kids.
1. Don't answer the phone with someone you don't know, they will call back if important.
2. When you call back, look up the company on the internet for the number or call me, since my dad doesn't have internet. I will go through the corporate directory found on the corporate home page
3. No one is going to try and arrest you, charge you are deport you. If they are, all me, and we will lawyer up. Always threaten with legal counsel.
4. If they have person information, call me, and I will contact all the companies including equifax, and transunion and change everything.
5. No one will ever ask for money on the phone, via text, or email legitimately,
6. If any one calls for personal information to verify you, tell them you will call them back see #2
7. Tell them you will turn yourself in at the police station or what ever official agency they are calling from.

I feel awful for the person. Criminals do prey on the immigrants and the vulnerable. I have had my poor nanny call me in tears because of one of these calls. I told her when she worked with me to just put them through to me. That usually stops them in their tracks.

People need to look out for themselves and stop blaming banks.
... you did notice in my very first post that I said " both are to be blamed" . She shouldn't have answer that call and wouldn't have end up like this. But then would it hurt the bank to not further investigate? NOPE, it's too bad for her. Until she's suing now ... and of course, she has to go to CBC.

Good thing you reminded me about the "holds" ... funny enough, the banks need to hold your cheque for 5 days that's written from another chartered bank in the event it's forged ... and yet wire-transfers in thousands of dollars go instant because someone lied (under duress)... LOL.

Let me sum it up - the banks do whatever they see fit, advantageous for themselves... including internal thieveries that they'll deny and fight you all the way until you need to lawyer up at YOUR OWN EXPENSE FOR STILL YOUR FAULT. I guess you never hear those too-bad stories.
 

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Ho hum. Non-story. Do you think banks are purposely trying to avoid returning funds. There’s a difference in these stories. In the first one, the account holder requested the transaction. In your example, she did not. It can take some time to conduct a fraud investigation. A month isn’t unusual. It’s more complex than your example makes it sound.
want to know whats more common? People saying they didn’t make a withdrawal at a certain time and place. Then we show them video at the ATM or teller....and they say...oh, I guess I was wrong. THAT actually happens more than actual frauds.
.. well, there're those emergency money from grandma stories that haven't been recalled here but then it won't be necessary as it's too bad for dumb old grandma too. Non story.
 

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^^ This.

Not sure if this is currently possible but it would be nice to setup at the bank a flag that says "Block all withdrawals or transfers out of any of my accounts greater than X dollars until I explain the reasons why".
... that's a good start ... but then banks can't be bothered with the extra-work on security or help on cutting down the fraud. Meh. It's someone's else problem(s).
 

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Discussion Starter #39
^^ This.

Not sure if this is currently possible but it would be nice to setup at the bank a flag that says "Block all withdrawals or transfers out of any of my accounts greater than X dollars until I explain the reasons why".
Simple? Not simple? Take the money above XXX and buy a cashable GIC. You can also ask a hold to be placed on the account. End result.....you’ll probably be facing a few NSF charges the next time you look at your account,
 
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