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... yeah could be but not just putting on "hot air" like "we're going to reform the rules" or "provide proper training". How much proper training does a person with killing tendency need?
Reform can include having much higher standards for who can become police, and how they are held accountable.
 

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I think you'd have a hard time getting people to disagree with the position that other resources should be used to deal with some situations like mental health episodes. The 'defund the police' slogan doesn't mean that--it almost seems tailor-made to generate disagreement.
 

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The educational requirements to become a police officer in Finland......A BA from University after extensive background investigation and psycological testing.

The educational requirements to become a police officer in the US.......get the most votes to become a local sheriff or have a high school diploma.

Federal agents like the FBI or Secret Service require higher education levels but they aren't the cops causing the problems.
 

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57 officers quit the emergency response team because they felt the 2 officers were doing their job.
What I've heard is that 57 offices were advised by the union to resign as they felt they were not being protected. There is a balance that needs to be achieved. Clearly, shoving that man was not necessary. It wasn't like it was a young adult who just had a freak fall.

On the oher hand, this can become too heavy handed. In the example below, a black man was wandering in the street and muttering, apparently on drugs and potentially having a mental episode. A few minutes in, a second cop approaches and tasers him and cuffs him. This cop was charged with battery and assault. It could well be that this use of force was not in keeping with the policies of the department, but in this case it seems more appropriate to take disciplinary action and retraining. Criminal charges seems quite severe. If we are threatening police with criminal charges for debatable uses of force, we might quickly find ourselves without anyone willing to take on the legal risk of doing this job.

 

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I don't see anything "debatable" about charging that cop. Hope he enjoys his time in prison.
 

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What I've heard is that 57 offices were advised by the union to resign as they felt they were not being protected. There is a balance that needs to be achieved. Clearly, shoving that man was not necessary. It wasn't like it was a young adult who just had a freak fall.

On the oher hand, this can become too heavy handed. In the example below, a black man was wandering in the street and muttering, apparently on drugs and potentially having a mental episode. A few minutes in, a second cop approaches and tasers him and cuffs him. This cop was charged with battery and assault. It could well be that this use of force was not in keeping with the policies of the department, but in this case it seems more appropriate to take disciplinary action and retraining. Criminal charges seems quite severe. If we are threatening police with criminal charges for debatable uses of force, we might quickly find ourselves without anyone willing to take on the legal risk of doing this job.

Protected from consequences you mean? It's just an example. I'm sure you can quickly google search other instances where people try to make police accountable and nothing happens, or things just get worse. Instead you get the union and other police officers defending the bad conduct.

You're leaving some pretty important facts out of that summary. I think the main issue is that he tased him several times, even after the man was on the ground

He ordered the man to roll over while he put his knee on his back and tased the man in his neck while he was on the ground.

While Roessler Jr. said the first officer who responded sought to assist the man, Timberlake appears to tase the man several times, body camera footage appears to show.


Tasing the man once to get control isn't an issue, or maybe multiple times if he is particularly resistant. It's the extra shots after the man is under control which is the issue. It reminds me of the Sammy Yatim situation. In both situations, there is little danger to others (remember Sammy was in an empty TTC streetcar with one way out). In both situations, the officer took the step to deal with the situation (I don't agree with the method, and in fact, I doubt there is no reason why they couldn't wait it out). But then they both took it too far. In Sammy Yatim's case, Forcillo kept shooting his body after it fell on the floor, which is where the attempted murder charge came up. In other words, if Yatim wasn't already killed by that point, Forcillo was demonstrating the intent to kill him.
 

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I agree with all that. I guess the question is whether that was truly criminal, or merely cause for disciplinary action. We don't charge hockey players for assault that happens in the course of playing a game (for the most part). I don't think it is reasonable to treat less than perfect use of police force with criminal charges. Not that we should tolerate it, but if the standard is too extreme it will be very difficult to find people willing to do this job, or they may err on the side of too little force which will also lead to negative outcomes in some situations.
 

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I agree with all that. I guess the question is whether that was truly criminal, or merely cause for disciplinary action. We don't charge hockey players for assault that happens in the course of playing a game (for the most part). I don't think it is reasonable to treat less than perfect use of police force with criminal charges. Not that we should tolerate it, but if the standard is too extreme it will be very difficult to find people willing to do this job, or they may err on the side of too little force which will also lead to negative outcomes in some situations.
There was the Bertuzzi incident. But was tasering someone more than half a dozen times the tipping point? Of course, some people will interpret the whole case as the cop was doing his job, but ignoring the extras. Ideally it should give police a reason to think, "I have this suspect under control, do I really need to keep tasing them again?" Unfortunately, the argument will be, "I can't tase someone without being charged" which is completely missing the point.
 

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The problem isn't that there a few bad apples, it's actually there are few good apples. The whole union and brotherhood is the issue. Take a look at what happened when 2 officers were suspended for pushing the 75 year old protester: Buffalo officers quit special team after 2 officers are suspended for shoving a 75-year-old protester, 57 officers quit the emergency response team because they felt the 2 officers were doing their job.

Whenever a "good" cop tries to shed light on the issue, they tend to get ostracized.
... agree and that's what give the entire cops' dep't a bad rap. Regardless the rot starts at the top as they're the ones who supposedly can [and paid to] manage their boys/girls.
 

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Discussion Starter #50
The call to disband the police is just insane. It is already happening in some broke American jurisdictions who can't afford their police departments anymore (not because of protests).

I think it is a stupid slogan, as it is highly alienating to the majority of the population. If you are trying to make the point that we should be using police differently, crying 'defund the police' doesn't convey that. What they are supposedly looking for is reform, and maybe a shift in resources to non-police interventions for things like mental health crises. It reminds me of the 'abolish ICE' slogan that is used from time to time. It is crazy to say a country would not have immigration or customs enforcement. Maybe if you were part of a larger customs union like Shengen, but even then you have air travel. Hyperbolic demands loses people who these protesters should be trying to persuade.
What does your comment have to do with Americans breaking Canadian quarantine rules? You have gone ENTIRELY off topic. Start your own thread if you want to discuss a DIFFERENT topic andrewf. You comment a lot but have started relatively few topics of your own for discussion.
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Besides a 'like' to click on, I wish we had a 'dislike' to click on and perhaps even an 'irrelevant' to click on. It would also be nice if the Original Poster of a thread had a 'delete comment' to click on when someone hijacked a thread off topic.

Besides finding loopholes to cross the land border, apparently some are also finding way to fly in.

I also think that it is entirely possible that some of the Americans crossing are simply ignorant of our quarantine on all those entering Canada, even if they are told at the border by CBSA. In one ear and out the other. The ignorance of some Americans of anything outside of the USA is often astounding.

By the way, the USA does NOT have a mandatory quarantine period on those arriving in the USA. If it doesn't exist in the USA, why would the average American think about it possibly existing in another country?
 

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Discussion Starter #53
The number of people trying to enter Canada for non-essential reasons is significant according to the following:

That's 7500 that have been refused entry for things like shopping! What it doesn't tell us of course is how many managed to BS their way in but if we know we are getting people trying, we have to presume some are getting through as the examples in the OP demonstrate. It also tells us that while the majority are from the USA, around 15% are coming from other countries.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
^ And so? What are you going to do about all these invaders? Call CSBA's snitch lines?
I will have my eyes open and if I see people getting out of a US plated vehicle and entering a restaurant etc. then yes I will phone the authorities.
 

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I am thinking that soon it will be America complaining about too many Canadians wandering across the border.

As the ecnomy worsens, people who can not afford heating will want to go South and people looking for food will want to move South.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
I am thinking that soon it will be America complaining about too many Canadians wandering across the border.

As the ecnomy worsens, people who can not afford heating will want to go South and people looking for food will want to move South.
Why would a Canadian want to go into the USA given their continuing rise in cases? Take a look at what is happening now in Florida after they went into a Phase 2 re-opening.

Canadians would have to be truly foolish to want to go the USA given their disastrous response to the virus.
 

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Discussion Starter #59
People will do wild things when they are cold and hungry.
Umm, how many Canadians are that cold and hungry that they will do wild things calm?

Try thinking about most Canadians, not the outliers. What do you think Canadian Snowbirds will do next winter say if Florida is still reporting 3000 new cases a day? Still go south for the winter or say, 'umm, maybe this year we need to give that idea a pass.'

Unless the world turns upside down, there will be far more Americans likely to be doing 'wild things' in trying to get out of the USA than there will be Canadians trying to get into the USA.
 

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Umm, how many Canadians are that cold and hungry that they will do wild things calm?
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Sorry, but I did not want to hijack the thread with comments about economics.
I think that the economy is going to become so bad in North America that we will be begging to afford heat and food.
I was not thinking today, I was thinking 12 months into the future.
 
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